Musical Instruments in Christ's church [2]

First lets put somethings in context shall we,

Eph 5:15-21 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, (16) redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (17) Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (18) And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit, (19) speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; (20) always giving thanks for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, (21) submitting yourselves to one another in the fear of God.


This is a common Church of Chirst tactic, to pull verses out of context to fit there views. However even then psalms are set to music therefore your point is kinda mute. The same holds true with your Col. 3:16 verse. These areas are telling us how to live as Christians.

Lets break down Eph. 5:19 shall we just for fun.

Eph 5:19 SpeakingG2980
λαλέω
laleō
lal-eh'-o
A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter.

to yourselvesG1438
G1438
ἑαυτοῦ
heautou
heh-ow-too'
(Including all the other cases); from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive (dative or accusative) of G846; him (her, it, them, also [in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons] my, thy, our, your) -self (-selves), etc.: - alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).

Pay attention to this one MUSIC
in psalmsG5568
G5568
ψαλμός
psalmos
psal-mos'
From G5567; a set piece of music, that is, a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a “psalm”); collectively the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Compare G5603.

andG2532
G2532
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.

I would like to point out to compare to G5567 which will show up down farther
hymnsG5215
G5215
ὕμνος
humnos
hoom'-nos
Apparently from a simpler (obsolete) form of ὕδέω hudeō (to celebrate; probably akin to G103; compare G5567); a “hymn” or religious ode (one of the Psalms): - hymn.

andG2532Already posted this above

spiritualG4152
G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

I would like to note that it refers you back to G5568 Oh wait there goes that mucical instrument again
songs,G5603
G5603
ᾠδή
ōdē
o-day'
From G103; a chant or “ode” (the general term for any words sung; while G5215 denotes especially a religious metrical composition, and G5568 still more specifically a Hebrew cantillation: - song.

True Enough but wait there is more
singingG103
G103
ᾄδω
adō
ad'-o
A primary verb; to sing: - sing.

Again refer to above
andG2532

So now the verse says to SING and to MAKE MELODY wait isnt this a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT, WELL YES IT IS
making melodyG5567
G5567
ψάλλω
psallō
psal'-lo
Probably strengthened from ψάω psaō (to rub or touch the surface; compare G5597); to twitch or twang, that is, to play on a stringed instrument (celebrate the divine worship with music and accompanying odes): - make melody, sing (psalms).

NOW READ THIS CAREFULLY do you see INSTRUMENTALITY in there
inG1722
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.


yourG5216
G5216
ὑμῶν
humōn
hoo-mone'
Genitive case of G5210; of (from or concerning) you: - ye, you, your (own, -selves).

heartG2588
G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, “heart”); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).

to theG3588
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Lord;G2962
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.


You are really going to have to do better than that if you want to convince us that we can only SING, have you got anything else, in context of course.

 

Long time reader of the threads, first time poster.

Argumentum ex silentio, which is Latin for argument from silence.

Argument from silence - generally a conclusion based on silence or lack of contrary evidence. Argumentum ex silentio is classified as a logical fallacy, similar to other fallacies such as straw man, argument from ignorance, etc.

Your arguments against musical instruments will continue to be weak and ineffectual as long as you continue using this logical fallacy. You may have arguments against musical instruments in the church, but the argument from silence fallacy isn't one of them.

 

No, I quoted what you said. Now you are putting what you said in context. Context is what you often ignore. Everything has context: the verse, the passage, the chapter, the book, the testament (Old or New), and the entire Bible itself. You ignore much of the context of the Bible. I only responded to the context of the verse that you quoted.
You also maintain the heart is the instrument. If that be true, no matter what the rest of the Bible says, your music (whether instrumental or vocal) must be in silence. You must retract your statement about the heart being the instrument. If that is true, then your music must be in silence, and you contradict the Word which you have quoted.

What does this verse really mean? Have you ever studied it in depth? Let's look at someone who has. I will quote to you Jamieson, Faucett and Brown:

Instruments were definitely included in the early church, according to Jamieson, Faucett and Brown.

The object of "in your hearts" is "grace." The phrase is "singing with grace..." They do not refer to "in your heart" as you suppose. Sing with grace is more like the command. "In your hearts" is a prepositional phrase describing how. We are to sing with grace.

And so they did. Maybe they clanged their shackles together to keep a beat.
What is your point?

This verse does not exclude instruments.

 

No problem; I completely understand.

I see we're just not going to find common ground on whether musical instruments are "required" vs. "allowed" (you made a distinction in a response to another person, where you basically state that God didn't disallow instruments, but that didn't mean He allowed it; most people would say, if it isn't disallowed, then it's hard to say He didn't allow it.)

To properly answer this, one must look at the fact that they were singing the Hallel, and therefore one must look at how the Psalms were "performed." If the Psalms were accompanied by musical instruments (which they usually were), and you are saying that the musical instruments are not allowed, then the burden of proof is upon you to show where in scripture the change came about.

You cannot simply say, "the NT says 'sing,'" and consider that the basis of your argument. You yourself have previously pointed out that we must use context and definitions and meanings; those include how things were actually done.

If you say there was a change in how the Psalms were sung--which is what you are saying--then the burden of proof is upon you to show the scriptural edict that made that change.

Otherwise, you are espousing an unscriptural point of view (that is, that musical instruments are disallowed, prohibited, etc.).

It's that simple.

 

Hum. Is this conversation over?

 

DOTF hasn't been able to answer.

He's had praise band practice.

 

Two, if you count the pitch pipe.

 

To all concerned, this is an inaccurate statement.

Here is the thread, which someone else started:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=56197
That thread does criticize a shrinking portion of the Churches of Christ.

 

Well, if I got him a "pepsi, mountain dew, sprite, mello yellow, dr. pepper, water, milk, tea, and a gatorade" instead of a coke, you would have a point.

If he had expressed that he had a liking for one of those other things, I would bring him that too. I would still have brought him a coke. I guess I would have been "idiotic" for the extra courtesy -- I say as I roll my eyes.

People with any literacy in English know that a person is "singing" regardless of whether or not s/he is simultaneously playing a musical instrument.

 

So you think that if the Psalms that were still being sung in the New Testament (I should add, being instructed/ordered to be sung), were originally accompanied by musical instruments (I should add, instructed/ordered to be accompanied) ... well, are you trying to say that in all probability, they were still being accompanied by musical instruments in the New Testament?

Because I don't see an argument from silence on the instrument issue. I see something that was clearly outlined in the Old Testament, and still being practiced in the New Testament, and being ordered to be continued.

 

defender, I would like to ask you why God' forbids (according to you) instruments in the NT church?

Everything God does, has a specific purpose.

What is His purpose for this prohibition?

 

Nah, I think it's still in debate.

For example:

First, you're going to have to point me to which verse in Psalm 42 Spurgeon was talking about; I've scanned through the Treasury of David for Psalm 42, and couldn't find this reference.

Second, in the very same volume (Treasury of David), speaking of Psalm 43:4 --

Spurgeon later says about Psalm 57:8 something similar to what you quoted about Psalm 42; but doesn't give a good account of why, when, or how the scriptural use of instruments in worship changed.

More later. Gotta go get something to eat.

 

D of F,
You have no answer to my post here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345032&postcount=43

I have described to you the what the words mean in Eph.5:19, and you have no answer. It is evident that these words in and of themselves meant to sing with the playing of instruments. You have no answer. I take it that you don't answer this post because it cannot be answered by those of your persuasion.

The same would be true of this post by Morgan T
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345022&postcount=41

 

I find it funny that DOTF makes the statement:

Now...keep in mind: he talks often of basing everything on the New Testament.

So, then, what does he use to prove his point?

Non-New Testament sources.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

It's interesting, anyway.

I found multiple references that Josephus (circa 100 A.D.) recorded the use of musical instruments. DOTF references Geitman's remarks on Josephus; but those overlook that Josephus was also a priest himself, and gives no indication that they were not doing the same practices that he was recording in his books.

I found it interesting in my research that there are a LOT of webpages that support the teaching of "no musical instruments"; and that most of them are pro-Church of Christ. Many were from Catholic supporters of the teaching.

Yes, there are many historians that "agree" that the early church didn't use instruments; yet look at the references DOTF provided; how many of those referenced the use of instruments in the 1800s? As such, one must realize that those particular references were relating to the use of instruments in their own time, and not particularly the use of them in the early church.

If one researches more, they'll find that it was around the same time that infant baptism was introduced (~300 A.D.) that an proclamation was made throughout the Catholic church prohibiting the use of musical instruments.

Were musical instruments in the early church being used in such a way as to be considered "worldly"? Of that, I have no doubt; just as they are today. However, let's be clear: I don't mean "all instruments" or "all uses."

When it really comes down to it, one could feasibly argue that the non-use of instruments is an argument from silence, even more so than the use of instruments is an argument from silence.

Can a piano drown out a singer, and thus "hide" the worshipful words? Yes, undoubtedly. Can a piano be used to support the singer, and thus draw the listener's attention to the words being used to worship the Lord. Yes, undoubtedly.

Will this debate continue? Yes, undoubtedly.

 

The heart is the mind.
The Bible "authorizes" the heart to be deceitful and desperately wicked.
The Bible "authorizes" murder and adultery, fornication, covetousness, and all such sin to come "from the heart."

Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Out of your heart comes the foolishness of the prohibition of musical instruments in the Bible.
The heart is the mind. The Bible uses the heart and mind interchangeably. Demonstrate to me that the heart is an "instrument".
No, it is the vocal chords, the flute, the lyre, the harp, etc., none of which are banned in the NT.
With my heart will I sing praises unto the Lord.
With my heart will I play beautiful music on my piano.
With my heart will I play joyful tunes on my flute.
With my heart I will love the Lord my God.
With my heart I will love my neighbor as myself.
With my heart I will witness to the unsaved of the saving gospel of Christ.
With my heart I will do all things for the glory of God, and that includes playing musical instruments.

Don't be so naive. He was specifically speaking of the church at Ephesus. What a lame excuse. These comments were made specifically about Eph.5:19, and you don't think they apply to the NT???????????????

I refuse your specific application; not their meanings at all. You want to apply a minor meaning not the major meaning. You are the one ignoring the lexicons.

Do I even need to bring up Strong and Thayer's works and his comments on the word psallo???

Please go back to grammar school and then come and understand what these men are writing. Don't try and push your theology into what they are saying. They don't support your argument at all. They contrast spiritual music (which may include instruments) to the music of the heathen. The prepositional phrase "in your heart," becomes almost irrelevant, as all things are done "in your heart" or with your heart. Our hearts are involved in all that we do, whether for good or bad.

OK:
The vocal chords are authorized in this way:

Matthew 12:35-37 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
--Your vocal chords are your instruments by which you will be condemned or justified.

Your heart is authorized in this way:
Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
--The heart that sings the melodies of your vocal chords is full of pride, foolishness, deceit, wickedness, etc. This is what the Bible teaches.

The logical response is don't read into Scripture things that are not there.
Don't force a pre-conceived theology into the Bible when the Bible doesn't teach it.