MUST God preserve mankind Free Will to be fair?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Dec 27, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

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    That He has to allow us full free will still in order to stay sovereign as God?

    that seems to be a classic arminianism viewpoint!
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    E. Y. Mullins is one of the greatest Southern Baptist theologians. He was president of Southern Baptist Seminary, a founder of the Baptist World Alliance, and a framer of the Baptist Faith and Message of 1925.

    Here is what he wrote about the free agency of man:

    Another Southern Baptist theologian-author is Thomas Paul Simmons. He wrote:
    God always acts freely according to His nature. So does man act freely within his nature.
     
  3. Inspector Javert

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    No "Arminian" or "free-willer" wants God to be "fair"...

    If God were "fair" we'd all burn in Hell.
    "Arminians" (as you call them) are completely dis-interested in "fairness" as you define it.
     
  4. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    "Fair" is so often used to be one of those "zinger" words. More appropriately, the word or attribute to consider is the "justice" of God. Thankfully God has other attributes like grace, hesedh, mercy and love. All of these attributes are brought out and mixed as ingredients in the bread of salvation.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    except that one of their biggest complaints against calvinism is that to their mindset, God HAS to treat all sinners on an equal basis, that he has to provode salvation freely to all sinners, and has to allow for free will, or else "not fair/puppet master!"
     
  6. Van

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    Calvinism is defended not by presenting Calvinism but by misrepresenting the views of non-Calvinists.

    Calvinism is irrational nonsense. Take God predestining whatsoever comes to pass yet is not the author of sin. This example of Calvinism's cognitive dissonance is spectacular.

    Does the Bible teach God treats all people the same? Nope. Recall Jesus saying "if I want to treat this person in this way, what is it to you?" (paraphrased John 21:22) So a false claim. This results in not discussing Calvinism but in addressing the endless fictions Calvinists post.

    God does treat all people with justice or mercy in the afterlife. That is certainly true. So if God predestines a person to sin, and then punishes that person for the sin God compelled, would that be just?

    So by the numbers:

    1) Does God have to treat all sinners on an equal basis? No, some get justice, others get mercy. So false claim by Calvinism's defender #1.

    2) Does God have to provide salvation freely to all sinners? No, some sinners live and die and never even hear the gospel. So false claim by Calvinism's defender #2.

    3) Does God have to provide free will to everyone? No, God hardens some hearts, removing the opportunity to trust in the gospel for His purposes. So false claim by Calvinism's defender #3.

    On and on folks, one falsehood after another to hide the truth that Calvinism is mistaken doctrine.
     
  7. agedman

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    This from someone who would defeat calvinism by presenting faulty premise.

    See how the mixture is turned?

    What has God predestined already for EVERY person who does not believe? Not that they sin, but they are condemned.

    It is not God's fault that man sin(s). God did not "predesignate" man to sin.


    Again, there is the element of improper alignment. God does not "COMPEL" man to sin. Man does just fine sinning on their own - no help from God is needed.

    That God is just and the justifier seem to escape humankind, for the typical person doesn't want to have their evil exposed much less be obliged to forsake what they most enjoy.

    As one can see, the numbers that are given do not add up to what Van desires.

    Rather, they show the biased assumptions, misalignment, and distortions so typical of one who has been shown what is factual but desires to remain comfortable in their own dissonance.
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    Running from Calvinism

    A display of cognitive dissonance. Does God predestine whatsoever comes to pass? Yes according to Calvinism. "To foreknow is to predestine" However, this Calvinist claims God did not foreknow and therefore predestine each and every one of our sins. Thus he is running away from the irrationality of Calvinism.


    More of the same cognitive dissonance. If I am predestined to do something, I am compelled to do it.

    No evidence, just the charge.
    1) Does God have to treat all sinners on an equal basis? No, some get justice, others get mercy. So false claim by Calvinism's defender #1.

    2) Does God have to provide salvation freely to all sinners? No, some sinners live and die and never even hear the gospel. So false claim by Calvinism's defender #2.

    3) Does God have to provide free will to everyone? No, God hardens some hearts, removing the opportunity to trust in the gospel for His purposes. So false claim by Calvinism's defender #3.​
     
  9. BobRyan

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    It is a question of righteousness and justice - not fairness.

    God "could" sovereignly choose any system He wanted for His Universe - but He chose the "whosoever will" model - .

    Having chosen that model - He then must be true to His own Word to then claim that His WORD is true, and that He is just and Righteous etc.

    That is the part that the Calvinist argument keeps missing.

    God does not represent Himself as "King of robot programming" but rather as King of a free will system.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. DocTrinsoGrace

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    Astounding! Do people actually cry out for fairness? I am a sinner. The last thing I want from a Holy God is for Him to be fair! I am a sinner! I crave mercy!
     
  11. preacher4truth

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    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    :wavey::thumbs::wavey:
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    That is simply not true! The Arminian arguments against total inability of totally depraved sinners is based squarely upon the assertion that such a predicament is not fair! How many times have we read on this forum that man must have "response-ability" or that would not be just or fair????
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    Exactly!!! They have God in a box or 'predicament', or at least they think they do. They see in Scripture the attributes of God, think them unfair, then go through a myriad of hoops to attempt to erase these truths or tweak them to their liking and to what makes them feel comfy and feel that God is now fair.

    Man judging God to whether He is fair or not, exercising their judgment upon Him and sizing up His Sovereignty, and concluding that His righteous acts in choosing are simply unfair. Totally ridiculous.

    You're correct. What IJ said is simply not true whatsoever.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Not according to my post above.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Inspector Javert

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  17. Inspector Javert

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  18. The Biblicist

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    #18 The Biblicist, Jan 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2014
  19. kyredneck

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    ....Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9:19

    The objection on the grounds of 'fairness' is apparently a natural one.
     
  20. BobRyan

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