Must salvation include correct doctrine?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Russ Kelly, Aug 14, 2004.

  1. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
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    I am frankly appalled at those in the 7th Day ADventist thread who seem to think that correct doctrine is essential for salvation.

    Has the Holy Spirit convicted you as a sinner? Have you yielded to the convincting power of the Holy Spirit and accepted God's forgiveness by faith in Jesus Christ? If so, have you been declared justified by faith? How pure was your doctrine at that time?

    How many of those at Pentecost understood the deity of Christ, the trinity, the emmanation of the Spirit, the definitiion of the church, the inspiration of the New Testament???

    How many centuries did it take for the church to agree on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit?

    Which doctrines do you think are essential for salvation? Which ones are of lesser importance?

    If doctrinal purity is esential for salvation, then we are just as bad as the SDAs and are just as EXCLUSIVE as they are, and are making ourselves just as CULTISH as they are.

    Russell Kelly, Ph.D.
     
  2. Helen

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    Dr. Kelly,

    Good points. Salvation depends upon Christ, and Christ only. What will you do about Jesus? is the key question.

    Knowledge and intellect are not part of salvation. HOWEVER, wrong doctrine -- primarily where the person of Jesus is concerned -- can lead some terribly astray. Because God judges the heart, we cannot even judge them (although their teachers are seriously suspect...).

    But you are right about intellect not being part of salvation. I have a feeling, though, that there is far greater peace and joy here on this earth for those who have not been led astray and are not involved in a legalistic sect.

    But salvation itself? Christ and only Christ is the answer there.
     
  3. Marcia

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    I don't think it took several centuries for the church to agree on the Trinity - it's just that they had to respond to heresies. There are quotes from some early church fathers showing belief in the Trinity and since the Bible teaches it, it was not a "late" doctrine.

    I don't know that any doctrine is essential for salvation except the gospel -- the son of God died for your sins and you must trust Him for salvation. Paul mentioned believing that Christ died and rose again. It's believing in Christ that saves, not a doctrine. But doctrine is pretty important after salvation.

    Although I don't think someone needs to know or affirm the Trinity and all the other stuff at the point of salvation, they should come to affirm it pretty soon after salvation, assuming they are getting some Biblical teaching. If they come to deny it later and continually do so, I would have to question if they were ever saved. Not understanding it initially is one thing but denying it afterwards is another.

    A case in point is Gwen Shamblin of the Weigh Down program. At one time it seemed she was a believer. But a couple of years ago or so, she posted on her website a denial of the Trinity and said that Jesus was a created being. After being confronted by Christians as to whether she really meant this, she not only affirmed these heresies but went on to form her own cult (the Remnant Fellowship) which is quite abusive, btw. Those who believe you can lose your salvation might say she might have been saved and then became unsaved, but I would say she was never saved.

    Guess I got off track there.... ;)

    This is a big debate in the church, though. On another list we had quite a debate on whether one must know Jesus is God to be saved -- most said no but they also said that the person should come to understand and believe that eventually. If they didn't or if they denied it later, then their salvation would be suspect.
     
  4. Marcia

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    Forgot to say this:

    I think doctrine about Christ at the point of salvation does matter. If someone is believing in the wrong Jesus (Mormon Jesus, New Age Jesus, JW Jesus, etc.) then I do not think they are saved because they have the wrong Jesus, especially if they continue to believe in this false Jesus.
     
  5. DHK

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    In the Other Religions Forum, Russ, I talked at length with an individual with someone who had a testimony similar to yours.

    He said that he was brought up in a cult that his parents were in. He was saved at an early age (about 10), when, he says, "he received Jesus into his heart as his Saviour."

    He believes he was saved for all this time--more than 20 years. It was not until last year that he discovered that Jesus Christ is God--deity.

    My question: How can a person be saved without believing that Christ is God?
    Was he really saved in the first place?
    I don't go by a person's experience. I would rather go by the standard of God's Word, and say no, you cannot be saved without realizing that Christ is God, or else you are serving another Christ, not the Christ of the Bible.

    But maybe the best route to take is simply to say that: Praise the Lord he is saved now. The Lord knows them that are his. And if he wasn't saved then, he is now. The time isn't important as long as he knows he is saved now.
    What do you think?
    DHK
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Must salvation include correct doctrine? No, but it must not include incorrect doctrine!

    I was saved at 10 and did not understand the Virgin Birth. Man, I didn't know what a virgin was!

    But had I known and rejected it, what would that say of my position on the sinlessness of Jesus the Christ?
     
  7. DHK

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    I believe that was the point I made in another thread, but in other words.
    Can a person in a cult, fully knowing the false doctrine of the cult, as well as understanding salvation, be saved and a member of said cult at the same time?
    I said no. How can one believe in two conflicting theologies at the same time?
    DHK
     
  8. Eagle

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    In Rev.18:4, God commands "...Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins.."

    If God calls these whom He is speaking to "His people," that's good enough for me to believe that they were/are/will be saved.

    Their doctrine is amiss tho in that they are "in" a false religion of some sort -- or else why would God tell them to "come out"?

    Thus, I am convinced that our wonderfully merciful God does in fact save them that are not doctrinally correct.

    However, representation of God is another matter. Recieving of the full benefits and blessings of being "in" God's House, and being "doctrinally correct" are at stake as well.

    Once faced with these truths -- I would hope that all truly saved would want to embrace and promote them -- thus demonstrating their salvation -- but I would not feel comfortable limiting God to even this.

    Jonah preached to the Ninevites and they were saved en masse. They probably did not have time to become completely "doctrinally correct." Nor, did they ever supplant Israel as God's chosen people and His representatives before the world. Nonetheless, I believe that they were saved.
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    I suppose that all depends upon what you mean by "doctrine." Do you mean all doctrines, regardless of how insignificant they may be, or only those doctrines that are essential for salvation? :D :D :D
     
  10. Craigbythesea

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    Born-again Christians [​IMG] who later believe in a Lutheran doctrine rather than a Baptist doctrine were never saved in the first place. All the Born-again Baptists [​IMG] who, after several years of faithful service to Christ, become a member of a non-Christian cult :eek: were never saved in the first place, that is, unless they decide to leave the non-Christian cult and return to their Baptist faith :D . Therefore, whether you are saved or not has nothing to do with your faith in the blood atonement of Christ and being born-again, it all has to do with whether or not you persevere yourself or are preserved by God and stay away from false doctrines :D . Hogwash! Hogwash! Hogwash! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Watchman

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    Brethren, you have made many good points here. For one to come to the realization that one is a sinner and the Lord Jesus is the only way to be saved, to repent and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, is, as I see it, the essentials for salvation.
    Now, that being said, one who is truly converted is a child of God, one of the Good Shepherd's sheep and has the Spirit of Christ within. If one has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. (Romans 8:9) The Lord Jesus, as stated in John 16:13 said: "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth." And as for being one of the Good Shepherd's sheep: "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." (John 10:5)
    Whould such a person: Guided by the Spirit, lead by the Good Shepherd, and instructed as a child of God, go off and follow the Mormons or J.W.s? Even worse, "deciding" that they are an atheist?
    Scriptually, I don't see how.
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    Would such a person: Guided by the Spirit, lead by the Good Shepherd, and instructed as a child of God, go off and get a divorce, yell at his boss at work, drive to fast on the freeway, forget to feed his dog no time, etc?
    Scripturally, I don't see how. :D

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    . . . let's leave it at that. [​IMG]
     
  14. Watchman

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    Thanks for the reply, but I think that there is a difference here. Sin can come (by giving into temptation) and goes (by repentence and confession to God.) But beliefs, for not knowing how else to say it, becomes a part of the person, it's who they are; That is, if one believes J.W. doctrine-they are a J.W.
    The one that wrote, "The Lord is my shepherd..." committed adultery and murder.
    "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (James 1:14) These things are the "lust of the flesh."
    But I do not think that David, as I mentioned above, would even think about worshipping another god. Temptations come and it is tragic if one gives into them. But disobeying God and grieving His Spirit is a far cry from thinking that God is a golden calf, or that He was once a man that lived on a planet out there somewhere.
     
  15. Craigbythesea

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    Where do you draw the line? How wrong or dangerous has the doctrine to be to exclude one from salvation?
     
  16. Watchman

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    What I am submitting is that there is no pre-salvation "litmus test," if you will. What I am saying is that the truly born-again WILL be led into all truth. If they subsequently cannot grasp the essentials: The trinity, The Diety of Christ, etc, were they born-again?
    The born-again have the Spirit of Truth, Christ as Shepherd and are God's children (certainly God is a perfect parent and knows how to bring His Children up in the faith.) The truth will follow, just like works, that is, fruit. The works do not save, they are indicative of the New Birth.
    Christ said in John 8, "If you continue in My word, then are you my disciples indeed." In that passage, they were later ready to stone Him: well, so much for being His disciples!
    Those that are truly His will bear fruit and grow in grace and truth.
     
  17. DHK

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    The line is arbitrarily drawn with each individual. The more light one has the more accountable the person is according to the light given him.
    That is why I say: If a person understands the doctrines of the SDA, and at the same time understands the doctrne of salvation, he cannot be a Christian and a SDA at the same time. I apply that same truth to a Catholic and all other cults. We are responsible for the light that we are given.
    DHK
     
  18. dianetavegia

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    Dr. Bob brings up a great point here! He was saved at 10. I was saved at 8. Neither of us were old enough or mature enough to understand minute aspects of doctrine but old enough to believe Jesus is God's son, died for our sins and is the only way to heaven. We didn't have to 'pass some doctinal test' and whose doctrine would it be? (Virgin was something I didn't really understand until high school.)

    On the other hand... pluralism and naturalism are both a horrible lie leading many right to the depths of hell!
     
  19. PastorGreg

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    Obviously a person doesn't need to have a PhD. in doctrine to get saved, but as Dr. Bob said, they can't believe wrong doctrine. There's more to it than just believe in Jesus and pray a prayer - they do have to believe rightly about the person and work of Jesus.
     
  20. Russ Kelly

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