Must we believe in the virgin birth?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ruiz, Dec 14, 2011.

  1. Ruiz

    Ruiz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    Albert Mohler tackles this question here. Is the Virgin Birth, like the Trinity, an essential of the Christian Faith?
     
  2. David Lamb

    David Lamb
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would echo what Albert Mohler wrote, in particular, this part:
    "Must one believe in the Virgin Birth to be a Christian? This is not a hard question to answer. It is conceivable that someone might come to Christ and trust Christ as Savior without yet learning that the Bible teaches that Jesus was born of a virgin. A new believer is not yet aware of the full structure of Christian truth. The real question is this: Can a Christian, once aware of the Bible’s teaching, reject the Virgin Birth? The answer must be no."
    I would apply the same reasoning to many other theological matters, like baptism, substitutionary atonement, etc.
     
  3. Ruiz

    Ruiz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    With possibly the exception of Baptism, I would agree with you and include other important issues like the Trinity, the atonement, the Innerancy and Sufficiency of Scripture, and the physical 2nd coming of Christ. I exclude Baptism because I would not deem this as a heretical doctrine if you disagree unless it is talking about Baptismal Regeneration.
     
  4. David Lamb

    David Lamb
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope you didn't read more into my post than I intended to be their, Ruiz. All I meant was that a person doesn't have to have even heard about baptism, substitutionary atonement, and so on in order to become
    a Christian. I didn't mean that people with a different understanding of baptism to mine must heretics.
     
  5. Ruiz

    Ruiz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is good. I have heard Mohler talk about this and basically use this phrase. In the past when he has talked he used this phrase he was talking about heretical issues like rejecting the Trinity.

    Thanks for clarification.
     
  6. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like Mohler's answer.
     
  7. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,535
    Likes Received:
    13
    Hi Ruiz;
    I wouldn't call the evidence shakey as this guy does.
    You see I believe the Bible to be with out error. The Bible says Mary was a virgin and I believe it because I believe in what it says. If we are going to doubt the truth of scripture then we may as well throw the Bible out. If we doubt it then where do we draw the line on the doubt.

    Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    It would mean doubting prophecy.

    Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    It was prophsied and confirmed by God's word.
    MB
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Belief in the Virgin Birth is not a prerequisite to salvation. However, the Virgin Birth is an essential doctrine for Christians. If Jesus Christ were not born of a virgin then Scripture is not trustworthy and we have no assurance that Jesus Christ is indeed the sinless Son of God who alone could atone for our sins: no virgin birth, no incarnation; no incarnation, no cross; no cross, no resurrection; no resurrection, no salvation. Martyn Lloyd-Jones writes of the birth of Jesus Christ as follows: “As the Lord’s divine nature had no mother, so His human nature had no father.” He writes further [page 263 of God the Father, God the Son]: “the virgin birth was a sign of the mystery of the incarnation. It was a kind of symbol of that mystery; there it was in a tangible form - this virgin birth.”

    The Second London Confession of Faith [1677/1689] speaks of the Incarnation as follows:

    “The son of God, the second Person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father’s Glory, of one substance and equal with Him; Who made the world, Who upholdeth and governeth all things He hath made; did when the fullness of time was come take upon Himself man’s nature, with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowing her, and so was made of a woman, of the tribe of Judah, of the Seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparable joined in one Person; without conversion, composition, or confusion; which Person is very God and very Man; yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.

    The Lord Jesus in His human nature thus united to the divine, in the Person of the Son, was sanctified, annointed with the Holy Spirit above measure; having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell.”
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Like his answer, in that there will be a time needed to understand nore fully on the essentials of the faith...

    We get saved by work of God on our behalf, NOT based upon ourBible IQ at that time!

    Only essential doctrine that I would "fudge" a little on would be inerrancy of Bible, as believe one can still be saved, yet hold to a limited view on Bible...

    I hold to full inerrancy/infallibility, but think others hold a less than view...

    they would be wrong, but not a doctrine stance that means not saved!
     
  10. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, you would say that a true believer could deny one of the fundamentals of the faith. A true believer can say that part of the bible is false? I must strongly disagree with that.
     
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    have to ask CS lewis about that in heaven!
     
  12. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,609
    Likes Received:
    157
    I have heard numerous times in diverse places by various people that the in Isaiah 7:14 the most accurate translation is "young woman" not "virgin".

    Whatever, Christ was Christ not because Mary was or was not a virgin. Christ was Christ because he was Christ.

    Note before knee jerk reactions. I did not say Mary was not a virgin. I simply said that people who know a whole lot more about Hebrew than I say the most accurate translation is young woman.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of my favorite writer. I believe he has an excellent grasp of Christian Doctrine and the Scripture. In his book The Church and Last Things he discusses baptism [Chapter 4]. He makes a strong case for adult baptism [with which I concur] and states he would baptize by immersion or sprinkling. Then he makes the bold statement [page 45]: "What I am certain of is that to say the complete immersion is absolutely essential is not only to go beyond Scripture. but it is to verge on heresy, if not to be actually heretical."

    Just goes to show that no matter how strong one is in doctrine they are not infallible. Lloyd-Jones, educated as a medical doctor, was a long time [30 years] pastor at the Westminster Chapel in London.
     
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    the command to water baptise is essential doctrine, but the Mode of it is NOT heretical if believer baptism not followed...

    baptist method best evidenced in Bible, but other modes might be wrong in sense as not as much scripturally supported , but not "heretical!"
     
    #14 JesusFan, Dec 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2011
  15. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Isaiah, it can be translated as "young woman" "maiden" or "virgin." We have examples of all three. Whether Isaiah meant virgin or not doesn't change that the gospels say that Jesus was born of a virgin.
     
  16. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what is your position? Was she a virgin or not?
     
  17. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,609
    Likes Received:
    157
    I tend to believe she was, but it is not of primary importance as Jesus was Jesus because he was Jesus. I am who I am because it is me, not my mother. No one is saved or lost believing that Mary was or was not a virgin.
     
  18. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why do you tend to believe she was?
     
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    the Bible staes that she knew "no man", and that the baby in her was conceived by Holy Spirit...

    pretty clear that mary was a Virgin, Eh?
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I affirm the virgin birth and would vehemently defend the doctrine, BUT do we really believe salvation is by Grace through faith, or don't we?

    Is it really by Grace through faith and affirmation of X number of key doctrinal truths? I believe a true Christian can be duped into not affirming this doctrine and still be saved.
     

Share This Page

Loading...