Must we obey the gospel to be saved???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SolaScriptura, May 30, 2002.

  1. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura
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    "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Th 1:8)

    God will take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel? That's what it says!
     
  2. Frank

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    Sola:
    Yes, unless we obey, we will pay. We must follow the example of obedience set by Christ.( Hebrews 5:8,9).We are to obey the form of doctrine delivered in the new testament. ( Romans 6:17). Lip service will not suffice. ( Mat. 7:21).
    Frank
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
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    From Robertson's Word Pictures:
    To them that know not God (toiv mh eidosin qeon). Dative plural of perfect active participle eidwv. Apparently chiefly Gentiles in mind (1Th_4:3; Gal_4:8; Rom_1:28; Eph_2:12), though Jews are also guilty of wilful ignorance of God (Rom_2:14).

    And to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus (kai toiv mh upakouousin tw euaggeliw tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou). Repetition of the article looks like another class and so Jews (Rom_10:16). Both Jews as instigators and Gentiles as officials (politarxv) were involved in the persecution in Thessalonica (Act_17:5-9; 2Th_1:6). Note the use of "gospel" here as in Mar_1:15"believe in the gospel."

    According to Robertson, there are two groups of individuals here: those that know not God (primarily the Gentile non-believers), and those that obey not the gospel (primarily Jews who had rejected Christ). There is still only one way to be saved: by faith in Christ. The Jews would not obey this. They wanted to add to faith, circumcision and the Law, much like some religions today would add baptism and tongues to faith. But the council in Acts 15 decided the question for them. They were not to follow the law. They did not have to be circumcised. Salvation is by faith.
    DHK
     
  4. SolaScriptura

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    Faith and Baptism CANNOT be separated. Salvation is by faith, but no one can claim to have faith and refuse baptism!

    Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized..."

    -- Now if you aren't baptized, you must not have gladly received the word. But what is gladly receiving the word? It is having faith, so those who are not baptized have no faith for they have NOT "gladly received the word"
     
  5. DHK

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    Faith and Baptism can be separated!

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
     
  6. SolaScriptura

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    but if a man recieves the Word of God he will be baptized. Acts 2:41 -- Thus you prove that you recieve not the Word and are an unbeleiver if not baptized. AND AND AND AND those in Acts 10:43 were baptized in Acts 10:48 because they beleived.

    (Acts 10:47-48) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? {48} And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    BAPTISM AND FAITH WERE NOT SEPARATE!

    [ May 31, 2002, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
     
  7. donnA

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    Not being baptized does not mean a person has never beem saved. I've known of some who were never told they should be baptized, of some who went to church somewhere in the past, who were never discipled(I don't know about anyone else, but here most small country church have no discipleship at all) and never learned the importance of obedience of baptism. Baptism shows a personal faith in Jesus. It is obedience, but it is not a part of the salvation experience.
     
  8. SolaScriptura

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    Katie says: It is obedience, but it is not a part of the salvation experience.

    God says: Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5:9)

    For some reason, Katie and God don't seem to see eye to eye on this. I wonder which one of them is dead wrong....hmmm....must be Katie.

    [ June 01, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
     
  9. DHK

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    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    I believe Christ, who said that you must believe on Him. The only work that counts is faith, and faith alone.
    DHK
     
  10. Frank

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    Dhk:
    James 2:24 says NOT BY FAITH ONLY. This is the only verse that use only and it is NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Should I believe Jmaes or you? That is an easy one. James has the better credentials.
    Frank
     
  11. SolaScriptura

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    I'll believe Jacobo, thank you.
     
  12. DHK

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    The English dictionary contains more words than just "only." The Bible contains more verses on faith than just the ones in James.

    Rom.4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Verse Three: How was righteousness reckoned unto Abraham? by faith alone.

    Verse Five: How does one attain unto righteousness? By faith alone--"to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth"
    Notice: no works, no baptism--ONLY faith.

    Verses 6-8: Who does God impute righteousness unto? Those without works. (no baptism here)

    A man is saved by faith, by faith alone, only, solely, singlely, exclusively...by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. His blood washes away sin; water never will.

    Jer.2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
    DHK
     
  13. SolaScriptura

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    (Rom 4:6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    I don't consider changing my mind and deciding to turn to God (repentance), confessing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God, and being dunked under water to be works. How could they be? In fact, in baptism you don't do anything but stand their and believe. It's certainly no great work! It certainly doesn't merit salvation! And yet, even though it doesn't merit salvation nor put God in obligation to save you, Peter says "baptism does also now save us" - WHY? or rather HOW? Peter adds "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" According to Romans 6 you CANNOT be in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection without being planted into the likeness of His death, and Paul says "you are buried with him in BAPTISM" Thus baptism enables us to be in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection (which is the newness of life in Christ, the new creation) by planting us in the likeness of His death! So, without baptism you CANNOT have newness of life nor be a new creation as Romans 6 points out - "all things" CANNOT "be new" without it! Thus, Peter says "baptism saves us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" NOT because it is a bath or a work and NOT because it merits salvation, but because it plants us into the likeness of Christ's death so that we can be in the likeness of His resurrection, thus "baptism saves us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" This is so simple!

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    (James 2:21-23) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    --Paul seems to say it was by faith only, but James shows that he didn't really say that, because quoting the SAME OLD TESTAMENT PASSAGE "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" James says "by works was faith made perfect." There is no such thing as saving faith without works - faith without works is dead being alone - faith alone is dead being alone - faith only is dead being alone - faith that is alone is dead, being alone!

    [ June 02, 2002, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
     
  14. DHK

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    "in baptism you don't do anything but stand their and believe. It's certainly no great work"
    By virtue of standing (something that you are doing), and having someone dunking you into water (something someone else is doing to you), you both are working together in the work of baptism trying to merit your salvation. I think you can understand this if we use the analogy of evangelism. Two of you may go and witness. One may present the gospel; the other may pray. Both are acts of faith. Both are works. Both are not necessary to salvation, but follow as a result of salvation, just like baptism does.

    "Peter says "baptism does also now save us""
    This is one of your favorite verses, and one of those verses which no matter who explains it to you, you will no doubt shut your eyes to the truth anyway. But just in case you will open your eyes to the truth, I will try once again.

    1Pet.3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    --First, it does not say baptism saves us; it says: "the like figure whereunto" baptism.... Peter is using an illustration, and takes the time to say so. Take notice now, he says. This is a figure, as in a figure of speech, a parable, a type, a picture, something symbolic. To find out what he is talking about one needs to go back to verse 20.
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Here is the "like figure." Eight souls were saved by water. When? During the Flood? How? By entering into the ark. What was happening? The water was coming down from above, and up from below; it was raining all around them; they were saved from the destructive waters all about them by being in the ark. The ark represented Christ. Notice that the waters of the Flood were destructive. The water does not save; it destroys. Thus it isn't the waters of baptism that saves. The water is a picture of destruction. They were also immersed or safe in the Ark, which represents Christ. The water destroyed; the ark saved. The world was destroyed; Noah was saved. The world of sin destroys; Christ our Ark saves. Jesus Saves! Your safe in the Ark. What a beautiful picture it is. The water certainly isn't baptism; for the water is a picture of destruction. Think again.

    Paul says we are buried with Him in baptism. Sure he does. He is addressing Christians, those who have already been saved. The book is written to the saints. Baptism pictures the burial of the saint with Christ. When I come out of the water it pictures the new life I have in Christ. It is a picture. It happens after salvation, not before.

    "All things cannot be new without it." It is not the baptism that gives life; it is Christ. He is the one who said, "I am come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly." Christ never put baptism as a prerequisite for eternal or abundant life. The only prerequisite for eternal life is faith, and faith alone.
    This Is So Simple!!
    DHK
     
  15. MEE

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    "All things cannot be new without it." It is not the baptism that gives life; it is Christ. He is the one who said, "I am come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly." Christ never put baptism as a prerequisite for eternal or abundant life. The only prerequisite for eternal life is faith, and faith alone.
    This Is So Simple!!
    DHK[/QB][/QUOTE]

    If baptism means nothing, then why is it mentioned in the scriptures? Matthew 28:19, Jesus says do it. John 3:5, Jesus says you can't enter heaven without it. Acts 8:16, they were baptized. Acts 10:47, Peter asked the question "Can any man *forbid water* that these should not be baptized?" Acts 19:1-5, they had to be baptized again.

    So, how does one still say that you don't have to be baptized and stay with the Bible? :confused:

    MEE
     
  16. SolaScriptura

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    Yes, it is Christ, but he does it through baptism! He is God and can do it as he chooses, and HE has chosen to do it through baptism. Man you guys sure love to limit God and tell him that he cannot give life through baptism.
     
  17. AITB

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    God looks at the heart. It makes no sense that outward ritual would give life to anyone.

    If you were referring to water baptism, that is.

    If you were referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then never mind...

    AITB
     
  18. DHK

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    Love one another.
    Pray without ceasing.
    Search the Scriptures.
    Study to show yourselves approved unto God.
    Meditate day and night.
    Think on these things.
    Love not the world.
    Be ye holy as I am holy.
    Take up your cross.
    Deny yourself.

    Do these commandments also mean nothing MEE. What relevance do they have both to baptism and to salvation? Like baptism they all must be obeyed, and like baptism they all are obeyed after salvation. Like baptism, if you fail in one, you will not lose your salvation. It simply means that if you fail, like baptism, you are a disobedient Christian; it does not mean that you are not a Christian or that you are not saved. The Bible does not teach that at all.
    John 3:5 speaks nothing of baptism. It does not say that you cannot enter into heaven without baptism. You completely misrepresent Scripture here. It has been explained before, but let us look at it again.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    ---Three times in John 3:1-11 does Jesus say you must be born again. This time he mentions you must be born by two different agencies: one is water, the other is the Spirit. We can all agree on the Holy Spirit. We must be born of the Spirit of God. That was the whole point that Christ was making. Why then does he mention water, and is it literal or symbolic? Remember there are just two agencies mentioned: water and the Spirit. We must confine ourselves to just two. If there is any other agency mentioned, then it must be the symbolism that water is portraying. Let's see if that is true.

    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    ---Remember it was not baptism that was mentioned in John 5:3; it was water. In this verse the Word is spoken of as a cleansing agent, much as water is used as a cleansing agent in daily use.

    James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
    ---Here James says that we are begotten or born (which would be born again) with the word of truth.
    How is a person born again? There are only two agencies: water and spirit; The Word and The Spirit.

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    How is a person born again? There are only two agencies. Water and spirit. The Word and the Spirit.
    These verses are very conclusive. The water of John 3:5 in no way refers to baptism but symbolically refers to the Word of God. The Scriptures never teach that you need baptism to enter the kingdom of God, or heaven.
    DHK

    [ June 02, 2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  19. Frank

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    Dhk:
    The Bible teaches water baptism is essential for the remission of sins. John 3:5 teaches one must be born of water and spirit. Water in verse 5 refers to the water of baptism, this harmonizes with the entire New Testament.Study Matthew 28:18-20, Mk. 16:15,16 all nine cases of conversion in Acts; Romans 6:3,4,17,18, I Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26,27; Ephesians 5:26,27; Col.2:12; and I Pet. 3:21.The idea of an unbaptized Christian is not entertained in the New Testament. Paul taught that every Christian had been baptized. Romans 6:3-" all we"; I Cor.12:13- " we all". The one baptism of Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism unto the remisson of sins. ( Acts 2:38, Mk.16:16, I Pet. 3:21).
    The spirit in the text is Greek word Pneumatos. The word Holy is not in the verse neither is the article The. It is an assumption that this is a reference to the Holy Spirit.
    Furthermore, Jesus said that his words are spirit and life. ( Jn. 6:63). The seed is the word of God. We are begotten by the implanted seed. ( I Cor. 4:15 , Pet. 1:23, James 1:18). When one believes that which is preached.( I Cor. 1:21),they are being born of spirit, when they are baptized they are born of water. This makes them a Christian.
    Every birth has two elements. There is the implantation of a seed. Then, there is a coming forth.( A birth).
    In the spiritual realm, there is the implantation of the seed, the word of God. Unfortunately, some receive the word and believe and do not become Christians. ( John 12:42,43: Luke 8:4-18). The gestation that brings forth( the new birth) never happens.These individuals reject water baptism and do not become Christians.
    The new birth is one that requires the obedience of man. Jesus in verse 7 uses the active voice for the verb Dei meaning a divine imperative we must do. The thing we must do is be baptized in water. This is the washing of water by the word.( Eph. 5:26). This is the washing of regeneration and renewal of Titus 3:5. This is the new birth of John 3:5 ( Anothen). Born afresh. The expresssion born of water and spirit is from the Greek " Ek hudatos kai pneumatos." Greek grammar requires that a prepositon be repeated before a series of nouns to consider them seperate. However,this is NOT the case in our text. Therefore, they are to be considered together. Both elements mentioned are essential in the new birth.
    Frank
     
  20. DHK

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    No Frank, it does not. You apparently did not read or did not understand my previous post. It is very clear what the water in John 3:5 refers to, and it is not baptism. Try again.
     

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