My People

The Holy Ghost doesn't lie, it is He that constrains His own by His love. I don't have to worry about missing "one", it's when I think He's missed one is when I'm in trouble.</font>[/QUOTE]So you're saying that you've never had a sin in your life that you haven't asked forgiveness for?

Scott, that is where you err again, on top of that as a calvinist.

Again the verb is "shall be" and not already are.

We ARE chosen before the foundations of the world, to be holy and without blame, but our sin causes us to be unholy and under blame.

God chose to save sinners, then sanctifiy them, then justify them, and one day we will be glorified! But that process hasn't been completed yet, we are "completely" saved as far as eternity is concerned, but as the old saying goes,"We haven't arrived". I'm already there in Jesus, just waiting on my body to be, hey sounds like a good title to a song, Hmmm?</font>[/QUOTE]Check the Greek there - you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

Christ is "quickened" we are being "quickened" by His Spirit, still a process of time from babes to perfection/maturity/ sanctification. He brought us to God so the process of sanctification could begin, we were not yet made perfect, learn to differentiate, again.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't think you understand the difference between justification and sanctification at all.

Again, sanctification is a process of time requiring our obedience to His prompting to live holy, unblamable, in all honesty. The "offering" is once and for all/ complete, not our sanctification is a one time occurance, it takes time to mature in Christ, which is our sanctification, sir.</font>[/QUOTE]Look at the Greek for sanctified here. Again, you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

Uh, you'd better study that verb "shall be" a little bit, it has a continual emphasis on the intial act of Christ, not a finality at point of origin or it would read "many are made". Use proper grammar.</font>[/QUOTE]The shall be doesn't refer to a person's continual journey to righteousness, but a one-time thing - how do we know? We examine the parallel construction with being made a sinner (which is immediate) and being made righteousness (which, according to the parallel construction) is also immediate. Romans 5 is full of these constructions.

From babes to perfection, sincere milk to partakers of meat: a process. You really should have caught on by now, especially quoting from the first Epistle to the most carnal church in the New Testament, riddled with immaturity and sin within it's memebrs, needing to repent, and doing so that evidenced by II Corinthians 7.</font>[/QUOTE]Despite these things, Paul calls them sanctified and saints all ready.

Red herring.

And you'll also notice that II Corinthians doesn't talk about forgiveness AT ALL. Don't you think if this was such a great need, he'd go into the details?

I'd like you to check out a little of the Greek to clear up some of your misconceptions, as well as have you read some of those verses in context to understand the parallel construction. Oh, and I'm still waiting for the verses that support your claim. And waiting, and waiting.

 

The following is borrowed from the Webster's 1828

"Sanctify:v.t. [Low L. sanctifico; from sanctus, holy, and facio, to make.]

1. In a general sense, to cleanse, purify or make holy.

2. To separate, set apart or appoint to a holy, sacred or religious use.

God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. Gen. 2.

So under the Jewish dispensation, to sanctify the altar, the temple, the priests, &c.

3. To purify; to prepare for divine service, and for partaking of holy things. Ex. 19.

4. To separate, ordain and appoint to the work of redemption and the government of the church. John 10.

5. To cleanse from corruption; to purify from sin; to make holy be detaching the affections from the world and its defilements, and exalting them to a supreme love to God.

Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.

John 17. Eph. 5.

6. To make the means of holiness; to render productive of holiness or piety.

Those judgments of God are the more welcome, as a means which his mercy hath sanctified so to me, as to make me repent of that unjust act.

7. To make free from guilt.

That holy man amaz'd at what he saw, made haste to sanctify the bliss by law.

8. To secure from violation.

Truth guards the poet, sanctifies the line.

To sanctify God, to praise and celebrate him as a holy being; to acknowledge and honor his holy majesty, and to reverence his character and laws. Is. 8.

God sanctifies himself or his name, by vindicating his honor from the reproaches of the wicked, and manifesting his glory. Ezek. 36.

JUST'IFY, v.t. [L. justus, just,and facio, to make.]

1. To prove or show to be just, or conformable to law, right, justice, propriety or duty; to defend or maintain; to vindicate as right. We cannot justify disobedience or ingratitude to our Maker. We cannot justify insult or incivility to our fellow men. Intemperance, lewdness, profaneness and dueling are in no case to be justified.

2. In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.

3. To cause another to appear comparatively righteous, or less guilty than one's self. Ezek. 16.

4. To judge rightly of.

Wisdom is justified by her children. Matt.11.

5. To accept as just and treat with favor. James 2.

JUST'IFY, v.i. In printing, to agree; to suit; to conform exactly; to form an even surface or true line with something else. Types of different sizes will not justify with each other."

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You've got some mighty tall explaining to do to the Church at Thessonalica. Can you do time travel? Seems Paul knew he needed to pray for them for this to come about. Hmmm?

True,and we can't be "unborn", but when they haven't behaved as saints? Hmmm?

I don't believe I would dare to bring such reproach on the very passage that explains repentence and sorrow for sin in the hearts of believers to call it a "red herring".

Maybe you care to explain "chastisement"?
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
(please, everyone, don't let the antics of man's redefining words offend you by the Lord's correct usage of this particular word, man does have his way of perverting things)

Now, Scott, what is this chastisemnet in the child of God? Reckon it could be associated with sinful behaviour? Reckon a penitent heart is what the Lord CONTINUES to desire in His children's hearts? YEP!

Is Scott the only one who isn't getting this?

Do you do this at will, or does your brain somehow dislodge itself and you can't see that the sin they were guilty of caused godly sorrow in them and there desire became to be forgiven for these sins?

Maybe you ought to define "the penitent", that is one who has penitence in his "new" nature, y'know, the one that battles against the "old nature of sin"

Scott, I've got the Greek and the Hebrew already in English. In our King James Bible.

Since you demand it to be found verbatum, I can't do that, but the Lord has taught us the principle and precept throughout His Holy Word. I've given you enough examples to even bring the simplest of minds to the truth, yet you continue to oppose yourself in the form of denial.

Since you'd like to refer to the Greek though, first try using the RIGHT Greek. That known as the Koine Greek, and try using the Masoretic Hebrew. I do have them right here at my fingertips.

My soul is sanctified. My spirit still needs more sanctifying. My flesh shall never be sanctified, it is condemned to death, and no matter how much I try to sanctify it, my flesh will die under that penalty for sin: past, present, and future.

 

So now that you know what the difference between justification and sanctification, what are the differences between the two, both from the perspective of God and the perspective of time?

What does this have to do with forgiveness of sins after a person comes to Christ?

Then I don't think you understand what a red herring is. It is not that it is unimportant, but that it doesn't match the issue at hand. How does it relate to the forgiveness of a person's sins after he or she is saved? If it cannot answer that question, it is a red herring.

So what in the world does that have to do with whether a person's sins after becoming a Christian are forgiven or unforgiven? (Oh, and the word at hand in the Greek means "nurturing," not punishing. It's the same word used in II Timothy 3:16 for "instruction." This is another poorly translated word in the KJV. There's no punishment associated with this verse.)

I get the principle - but you still haven't shown the answer to the question. Where in the Bible do you see that a person's sin can not be forgiven after he becomes a Christian?

It's not there. Read the chapter again. I'm not sure exactly how you see it.

Because you can be sorry for a sin that is already forgiven. Wrap your mind around that.

Then you're missing out on some cool little nuances. Perhaps that is why you believe errantly as you do about the nature of forgiveness. I'm still encouraging you to do a little research.

You keep saying that, and yet you still hvaen't answered the question. You're showing a lot of smokescreens, of course. But you can't show your example, because it's not found in the Bible.

Then use the koine Greek then. That's what my training is in. You do realize that it is not the word for the Greek New Testamant, right, but that it is a dialect of Greek that the NT was written in, right?

When were you justified? Are you still going through the process of justification? Is justification a process? How does Paul relate the words justification and forgiveness? How does Paul relate the words sanctification and forgiveness?

Here's a hint: Sanctification is the process of being made holy, and is a process. Justification is a one-time deal where we accept Christ's atonement for our sins and we are once for all forgiven of all sins, psat, present, and future. Justification is an equivalent to forgiveness. It is because of this justification that we can have true fellowship with God, even when we sin. It is because of justification that we can be part of the family of God.

From Easton's Bible Dictionary

 

Scott, I truly believe any conversation with you is become totally pointless due to your insistance to avoid the truth.

I understand exactly what you believe and it is correct, but ONLY to the point of justification in the respect that we won't ever face the second death known as the outcome of the Great White Throne Judgement on the lost.

I also understand just how important it is that the Christian realizes his liberty in Christ which invokes having Victory in Jesus, all that because we are justified in His sight.

One thing of note all Christians should be aware, this ever dying world looks at your view as 'christians" can live anyway they want to and not suffer judgement for wrong doing. If this is your intention to convince poor souls of such then, sir, you trying to make God a liar.

There are many scriptures that you should learn their application as far as eternity goes.

Another thing all should realize, the Judgement Seat of Christ is just that and not a rewarding for sin in the Christians life. Even people with a limited knowledge know that sin is not excused, forgiven yes, and only excused as confessed.

Take a look at this "red herring"
Aachan was a descendent of Israel, he took that which is abomination and hid it from all. God knew it was there and it brought peril to the children of Israel. When confronted/conviction came but the certain fearful coming of judgement ensued. His sins of that year had been atoned for, that which is a perfect picture of Christ, but only a covering for that year, still his sin was atoned for, or was it? Was that particular sin atoned for after he committed it, or before? It couldn't have been before, so if it was it had to be after.

The same is in the child of God's life, now Aachan was under the penalty of breaking God's Law and that penalty ensued by the stoning of him and all that he posessed. His sin could have been atoned for, bnut judgemnet answered and execution followed.

That isn't exactly the case with the child of God though is it? Our sins are under the Final Atonement, but yet unconfessed sin has it's judgement, but the execution by death is done away, but not the chastisement if remained unconfessed, it is not the "sin unto death".

I'll only go this far this time as you aren't learning anything choosing to remain ignorant to the truth of God's Word in precept and principle, which is found in perfect harmony throughout the Bible, including both Testaments.

Didn't Solomon say as inspired:Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Is God a liar? NO! He cannot lie, so your "theology" has a big hole in it, and any sin you might have in your life you had better get under the Blood of Jesus.

Also on the part about the Koine Greek, yes it is a dialect, but the right one. The manuscripts found written in it don't have the contradictions as the Septaugint and other Latin influences.


You've accused me of having a catholic belief, but you have relied on the Latin disguised as Greek to make a totally pointless point, if there is such an animal. No wonder you keep coming up in contradiction to God's Word, you're using the wrong book! But that is what it all boils down to isn't? The belief according to the Lord's instruction, vs what men have concocted to perform that which is right in their own eyes.

We can never avert judgement, but we certainly can avoid it! That is all through the Blood of Christ, ONCE shed on Calvary, Once sprinkled upon the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant, but only if we confess our sins is he faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is why we can continually come before the Throne of God, boldly as a matter of fact, but not arrogantly in denial of present sin, is that where you stand?

Don't bother answering me, Scott, but please answer God.

 

Why won't we? Because our sins from the beginning to the end have been forgiven! I take it that you are going to give up on that point, since you haven't addressed it in a long while.

We have victory, but onyl because we have been 100% justified.

No they don't, and here's why. About three pages ago, I said that the reason that we struggle against sin is precisely BECAUSE we have been forgiven. Paul was very specific about that. We don't get MORE grace because we sin more. We have all the grace we need. We struggle to please God, and in doing so, we wrestle with that which is sinful. Don't put me in the same boat as those who believe that we have a license to sin, because that is about as contrary to the Bible as, well, believing that a Christian can somehow commit a sin that does not fall under the justification given to us upon our acceptance of faith. Both are terrible errors.

SO NOW YOU ADMIT IT!!!!!!!!!!! It is forgiven. You've contradicted again what you were saying for the last three pages, and I finally got you to admit it! Now the idea of being "excused as confessed" this is not Biblical, but that's for another day. The important thing for you and anyone else still reading is that the forgiveness bought by Christ is eternal and total, and there is nothing we can do to lose that everlasting forgiveness!

You're comparing forgiveness and judgement under the Law with that under Grace. Two completely different things

I'm not ignorant at all. I understand how the law of the spirit of life has set us free from the law of sin and death. I have studied Romans, Hebrews and the other epistles which have compared just how different the two are. It's in harmony, but they are two completely different things.

Seriously, I would encourage you to read the whole book of Ecclesiastes to understand what it's about. Take the book in context, and see what you find out.

Any sin that I have in my life will forever be under the blood of Christ. That happened upon my justification to God through Him.

That's what I read, and that's what I was showing you. Don't ignore it.

Latin? What are you talking about? The readings that I gave you several posts ago referring to tenses that you didn't have right were from the TR, which is what was used to translate the KJV. That's the first I've ever heard of "Latin disguised as Greek."

You will notice that the verses I showed you were stright from the KJV, because I thought I wouldn't have to put up with the whole version nonsense. Even when there are holes in the actual Greek itself in your argument, you come up with this! Since you do not know Greek, it is obvious which one of us remains in ignorance.

Again I John 1:9 is written for those who are accepting Christ. If this were not so, we would not be able to approach the throne until all of our small sins of comission and ommission are taken care of. To confess our sins, do we not need to come to the throne? That's a paradox that shows just how incompatible your position is.

Why? He and His Word are squarely on my side. Keep studying the doctrine of justification - you're find it quite liberating and you just may have more joy in your life to understand that God provided salvation and forgiveness that covers EVERYTHING. Surely God is worth that glory.

 

Scott, this is my last post concerning our discussion.

I believe and know we are both saying the same thing, but you seem to allude to me thinking that I believe a Christain can some how be unforgiven in the sight of God, no, not for a millisecond. You have split hairs with me over this for days now. I have never said we aren't justified, but only the sin in our present lives isn't justified,neither the sin of our past, nor the sins of our future: SIN IS NEVER JUSTIFIED! Was that loud enough? SIN IS NEVER JUSTIFIED! Just in case you didn't understand the first 22 times.

Since you are THE authority of Romans as you have proclaimed, give it another shot holding onto what you repeatedly are saying and explain the following, explaining just who the "brethren" are and just who the "ye" are in verses 12/brethren and 13/ye, hint, they are one and the same:
Romans 7:12 Therefore, brethren , we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Seems Paul is concerned for his "brethren" in Christ Jesus that they should not be led by the flesh, because there is death lurking in the quagmire of sin, yes, for the child of God.

Paul is expressly dealing with the conflicting natures of the flesh and the "born again" spirit.

Your theology denies the being led by the flesh to end in death for the Child of God, but Paul is explicitly clear in this passage. Notice the reference to "sons" of God and not "children". Use your best Greek to determine the tense of the nouns. You will find "sons" to be in the tense that determines their being a student of godly principle, being led by the Spirit, just as the "sons of God" were the godly line of Seth, not fleshly, but godly.

Then explain why verse 13 says that "we/ye" do mortify the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit. Seems to me that passage says exactly what I have been saying all along; when we follow the flesh we sin, needing to mortify, become dead to, the flesh. The ONLY way to do that is "reckon" ourselves dead, buried, and raised to new life in Christ.

Also, go beyond the simple historical interpetation of Ephesians 2:14 and see how the Gentiles/ children of men, have passed through this impenetrable "wall" to become one as the Jews are one as the chosen of God/children of God.
we become "one" with them because of Jesus being our peace, but what happens when we don't consistently have that peace, Scott? We have access through the veil, but in the act of sinning we again take on the old nature of the flesh and behave as if in our prior condition of being a Gentile and a stranger to God. Sure we are forgiven, but in blatant disregard to that "wall" broken down and coming to the place of reckoning again. That again is what I have been saying all along, over and over, and over again.

That reckoning is what allows us to live in Canaan's fair land, uh, that land that God has healed! If you'll notice, I've been through Canaan and entered into a land called Beulah, but every once and a while I go back to Canaan and have to fight a few of it's inhabitants all over again/the flesh.

I hope this hasn't been too deep for you, Scott, but it is truth and precept upon precept, line upon line.

Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah : for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Beulah: married

(and we wonder why God has always placed such importance on our fellowship with Him, He's our Groom!)

And Hephzibah: His delight

Praise Jesus and the Lamb of God Forever!

Romans 6:11 admonishes us to "reckon" ourselves "indeed" dead to sin, but what happens when we don't "reckon" it to be so/doubt? Again, I never said we weren't already forgiven and you can dance around the issue all you want to, but when we doubt what God has already done in us we do sin, and that does need to addressed to God who knoweth our frame. Yes He forgives, we are forgiven, but to maintain that fellowship, not relationship, we must continue to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, but when we don't, we live defeated and fall short of the grace of God, reckoning ourselves to be unforgiven, in that, He never has us to be that way, we sin willfully and cause the sin which separates our fellowship with Him. That, my dear friend, is what we need to confess to Him, I don't care how you explain it away, that is just the facts.

 

I wrote that you believe that a Christian can commit sins that are not forgiven. Your exact words: sin is "not already forgiven because it is active in the life of the believer." That is your problem - you made the statement and have been absolutely unable to prove it. Now you are either recanting your statement, or you are changing your mind. Either way, my goal has been met.

Now, you're changing your mind again. But, I'm thinking you've just confused the word justified and justification. A common mistake, I guess. A person is either justified (seen by God as holy) or condemned (see by God as not holy.) Sin doesn't fall under the scope of justification. You can talk as loud as you want, but it doesn't make it right.

This is another easy one, but you really don't care about the conditional "if...then" statements in the Greek, do you? If you don't know what you're talking about, then you should read more. If you understand what you're talking about, then you have been reading. See how those two verses both used the word "you?"

Let us bring this to an interesting spin - we have another contradiction. If the passage about dying refers to what you seem to make it mean, does that not imply that a person has been unforgiven? Are we not as Christians set free from the law of sin and death? So how should we explain that?

Which is true, but you don't see anything about forgiveness there, do you?

Nouns don't have a tense, so what you are getting at is null and void. Keep studying the Greek, sir.

And what does that have to do with that sin being unforgiven?

I snipped the rest, primarily beacuse you bore me with the same old red-herring/straw man arguments. Since you have yet to present a single passage that even eludes the point that a Christian's sin can be unforgiven, as you have said several times, it is plain to me and to those who have been keeping up with this thread, that your position is extrabiblical, and not consistent with the doctrine of justification.