My Position on the Fourth Commandment

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, May 14, 2011.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    The Sabbath was instituted by God in Genesis 2:2-3 BEFORE there was a jew on the face of the earth. It was "made for [the] man" and it was "made" by Christ as the Creator of man (Mark 2:27-28).

    It was "sanctified" by God or SEPARATED from the rest of the previous six days by God and it was "blessed" by God in contradistinction from the previous six days. Therefore, it was not "made" for man "just as the other six days were made" for man. No, it was "made" distinct from the other six days.

    The original Sabbath commemorated a SINLESS creation where God could say "very good" and this SINLESS creation was based upon CONTINUANCE IN GOOD WORKS by Adam and Eve. Grace and mercy have nothing to do with this first creation and when sin entered in, the whole creation was no longer "very good" but corrupted and defiled by sin and reserved for destruction by fire at the end of the SEVENTH millennium.

    The fourth commandment in Exodus calls upon Israel to "REMEMBER" the creational Sabbath while the fourth commandment in Deuteronomy calls upon Israel to "REMEMBER" redemption out of Exodus. The former calls to mind the SINLESS state of creation before the fall while the latter calls to mind the RESTORATION of creation to a sinless state by the blood of the passover Lamb of God. The former calls to mind SINLESSNESS by works and finds its application UNDER THE OLD COVENANT in the seventh day "of the week" while the latter finds it application UNDER THE NEW COVENANT in the "first day of the week. Both of these applications are vividly portrayed in Leviticus 23,25.

    The Creation Sabbath and the Fourth commandment do not contain the words "of the week". However, the application of the Sabbath law is consistent with the Seventh day "of the week" but yet cannot be restricted to the Seventh day "of the week" as God applies the Sabbath law to a variety of other days "of the week" as well as to other periods of time than the 24 hour day but to the seventh "month" and to the seventh "year" as well as to the first day, 50th year etc. Thus you cannot restrict the Sabbath law to the Seventh day "of the week" when God applies it far wider, although, it includes such an application.

    Under the Old Covenant the application of the fourth commandment finds its most prominent application to be the seventh day "of the week" as seen in Leviticus 23. However, also in Leviticus 23 is the foreshadowing of the NEW covenant and in connection with this NEW covenant types the most prominent application is always without exception the first day "of the week." Thus the Exodus applicatiton has reference to a SINLESS CREATION maintained by WORKS whereas the Deuteronomy application has reference to REDEMPTION in Christ by a NEW covenant that ushers in a NEW and SINLESS creation that commemorates GRACE without works.

    The Old Covenant application by the Jews not only points to a SINLESS CREATION in connection with WORKS but is inseparable from the Levitical regulations that demand that such a goal and set forth the WORKS necessary to obtain (sinless perfection) that goal in the life of the Jew (if he or any man could actually keep that law).

    The New Covenant application of the fourth command not only points to a SINLESS creation yet to come in connection with REDEMPTIVE GRACE but celebrates that grace in sanctifying that day in rejoicing and gladness (Psa. 118:24) and in private and public worship "in spirit and in truth" in doing the work of God (Isa. 58:13). It is a BETTER Sabbath observance for the people of God (Heb. 4:9) because it is based upon a GREATER work of God in Christ (redemptive work) that brings in a BETTER creation where again God can look upon all that he has created and say it is "very good."

    Hence, the relationship between the first Sabbath in Genesis and the Sabbath observance in Hebrews 4:9 is a SINLESS creation. That is the "rest" that the people of God must enter into in order to be free from the PRESENCE of sin. Faith in the gospel frees us from the "penalty" of sin (Heb. 4:2-3). Sanctification by the Spirit of God frees us at times from the "power" of sin but our salvation from sin will not be complete until we enter into that "rest" which is yet future -the rest of God from all sin - the rest found in the first creation but spoiled by sin but restored in the new creation.

    The New Covenant Sabbath application is the first day of the week, the "Lord's day" and is set apart and blessed by God to remember the redemptive work of Christ that provides great anticipation and expectation of a New Sinless creation. It is separated from the other six days of the week as "the Lord's day" and is observed by rejoicing and gladness (Psa. 118:24) as a day set apart for public worship of God's people and for doing the WORKS of God (Isa. 58:13).

    Hebrews 4:1-11 sets forth the theological ground work for the above interpretation of the Sabbath. All believers before Calvary entered into SPIRITUAL rest when they believed the gospel (Heb. 4:2) just as we do. Spiritual rest is the rest from the presence and power of sin in our spirit due to the new birth. The new birth obtains a sinless sanctified sanctuary within the elect for God to dwell - what is born of Spirit is spirit. However, our soul and body have not entered into a sinless state. The creational Sabbath commemorates a "rest" wherein God and all creation dwelt in a sinless state (Heb. 4:4-5). We have not entered into that kind of rest yet. Joshua did not lead Israel into that kind of rest but only led them into a type of that rest - Palestine. David did not obtain that rest for the people of God by merely subduing all enemies of God's people but only obtained a type of that rest.

    Jesus by his work of redemption (Heb. 4:10) provided the basis to obtain entrance into that kind of rest NOW in spirit and in the FUTURE for both spirit soul and body (Heb. 4:11). Just as God commemorated the first work of creation by a Sabbath observance so also Christ commemorated the second work of creation by a sabbath observance - "the Lord's day" the "first day of the week" the resurrection day and therefore there remaineth a Sabbath day observance for the people of God - a better Sabbath - a sabbath characteized by rejoicing and gladness, and hope, (Psa. 118:24). A Sabbath observance without Levitical Old Covenant regulations. A Sabbath observance characteized by public worship and doing the works of God.
     
    #1 Dr. Walter, May 14, 2011
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  2. HankD

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    Good to see and hear from you again Dr Walter. Yes Christ gives rest to those who are heavy laden and weary as He promised. He is our Sabbath rest.

    Dr Walters do you see a significance to "Deuteronomy" as a second giving of the law?

    What do you think sets it apart from Leviticus?

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  3. Dr. Walter

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    Yes, Hank! I see the law given twice in keeping with the law under the Old Covenant versus the Law under the New Covenant. The Sabbath law is really the summation of all other nine in principle and practice. In the second giving of the law the Sabbath is to be kept in connection with remembering redemption. The law is written on the heart under the new covenant (Ezek. 36:26-27 with 2 Cor. 3:3).

    The day that commemorates the work of redemption - "the Lord's day" is the external application of the fourth commandment under the new covenant. This new covenant Sabbath is free from all the levitical regulations that characterize the fourth commandment application under the Old covenant.

    We enter spiritual rest "in Christ" when we believe in the gospel just as all saints previous to the cross entered into spiritual rest "in Christ" when they believed the gospel (heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43). However, the significance of the Sabbath in Genesis 2 cannot be fulfilled in the fourth commandment application under the Old Covenant, it was not fulfilled by Joshua leading Israel into the promised rest of Palestine and it was not fulfilled by David subduing all the enemies of God in the promised land (Heb. 4:7-8). However, all these things were TYPES of the final and full application of the fourth commandment found in the NEW CREATION yet to come where once again all creation will be free from the presence of sin. Hence, there remains the external token or actual external sabbath day observance for the people of God (Heb. 4:9) that commemorates the greater work of redemption (Heb. 4:10) by Christ until the people of God enter into that NEW CREATION forever free from the PRESENCE of sin.

    This better Sabbath day observance is without legalism, without levitical regulations characterized under the OLD covenant. It is a day set apart for rejoicing and gladness and public worship in pursuit of the works of God. It looks back at Calvary and forward to the New Creation. It is better than the first creational sabbath in that the first commemorated a creation without the presence of sin whereupon God could say "very good" but dependent upon the WORKS of man for that state to continue. In contrast the New Covenant Sabbath - "The Lord's Day" commemorates the work of redemption that secures a NEW creation from the presence of sin based purely upon the GRACE of God without works.
     
    #3 Dr. Walter, May 14, 2011
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  4. Dr. Walter

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    BTW my interpretation of the Sabbath law is not based upon unBibical logic or allegorization without biblical precedent.

    Acts 2:1-41; 1 Cor. 5:6-8; 10:1-11; and Acts 3:15-19 all give Biblical precedence to understand the feasts in Leviticus 23 as TYPES of New Covenant truths under the Old Covenant law. My interpretation and application is in keeping with the Biblical precedent to understand such feasts as types of New covenant truths.
     
  5. Dr. Walter

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    Neither the Creation Sabbath or the fourth commandment ever use the words "of the week." Neither was based upon the Babylonian Calendar or any modern calendar. The fourth commandment was incorporated into the Biblical monthly calendar given in Leviticus 23 which is a DATE calendar instead of a DAY calendar. This calendar was Lunar and that is precisely why the pre-babylonial books of the Bible speak of the "new moon." The lunar calendar was 30 days and this can be clearly seen by the dating given by Moses concerning the length of the flood and the account of Noah and thus a 360 day year. In Biblical lunar Calendar of 360 days there is 30 days in a month which is not divisional by seven. Hence, if the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week in a Lunar Calendar month, then the 29th would start the beginning of the week that would carry into the next month and thus the Sabbath would fall on the fifth of the next month instead of the seventh and then proceed to fall on the 12th, 19th, 23rd and 30th and then begin all over again the next month on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th.

    Now if you put the Babylonian DAY names to each of these dates that would mean every other month the Sabbath would fall on Friday instead of Saturday and most likely that is why the Egyptians Sabbath was observed on Friday.

    Hence, the principle is six days work followed and preceded by one day Sabbath regardless of the calendar being used and regardless of the day the Sabbath fell upon.

    The permenant establishment of the Sabbath on Saturday by the Jews was due to the Babylonian calendar day names and tradition rather than to any positive Biblical statute or command. The principle of the fourth commandment permitted such an application as the principle only demanded a set of seven days where six days preceded a Sabbath and six days followed a Sabbath.

    However, in the Biblical calendar given in Leviticus 23 the Sabbath was established upon the 1st, 8th, 15th, and 22nd day of the month in regard to all the feasts and if you then followed the Babylonian Calendar day names that would mean the Sabbath fell upon Sunday during these months with their feasts. This is also consistent with the Biblical principle of the fourth commandment of a set of seven days whereby six days of work precede and follow a day of rest.

    The significance of the Biblical calender given in Leviticus 23 is that this is God's calendar and in God's calendar he changed the Calendar year where the first month of the previous civil year that had been observed by Israel in Egypt now became the seventh month in the religious Calendar which began with a first day Sabbath in the seventh month instead of a seventh day of the month sabbath. Furthermore, in the religious calendar year established by God all the feasts, which were types of the New Covenant made the first day "of the week" Sabbath preemeninent over the Seventh day "of the week" sabbath in a lunar month. The reason is because the New Covenant would be commemorated by the first day of the week Sabbath rather than the Seventh day of the week. Significantly every feast in the religious calendar established by God made the first day of the week more prominent than the seventh day of the week. Just look at Levitius 23 and you can clearly see this. Likewise, in the Biblical week of years calendar given by God the 50th Sabbatical year held more prominence than the Seventh Sabbatical year. The 50th year would be equivilent to Sunday in the daily week calendar.

    SDA and other Saturn-day worshippers repudiate the Biblical calendar with its emphasis upon the first day, first year and follow after the Jewish tradition based upon the Babylonian Calendar names for the days of the month.

    The Sabbath law or fourth commandment was based upon a principle of six preceding a seventh and following a seventh. God applied the Sabbath law to the first day of the week in all of the monthly feasts that characterize and typify the New Covenant. However, he applied the principle to more than 24 hour days but to "years" that were not only the "seventh" year but also the 50th or what would be regarded as the "first year" of the week of years.
     
    #5 Dr. Walter, May 15, 2011
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  6. HankD

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    Whew! Thanks for that answer Dr Walter.

    HankD
     
  7. billwald

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    Noah must have been VERY busy during his ark voyage, securing the elephants while the ship was tossing in the waves and scooping the tons of poop. If he had lost track of the time once out of all those months and missed a day then Sunday has been the Sabbath for the last 4000 years.
     
  8. HankD

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    It's OK Bill.

    God took care of it and He didn't even need a calendar or a watch.

    HankD
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Re:
    DW, “Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." It can include it but it is not restricted to it”….
    “Nowhere is the Sabbath command limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"” is your, UNTRUE, generalisation, again.
    Because wherever it is said “The Seventh Day” WITH REFERENCE TO, the creation – as in Genesis 2, Exodus 20 and 31, and Hebrews 4 and Mark 2 –, the number and sequence of days AS THAT single UNIT-of-seven-days and single EVENT-of-seven-days, formed the determinative ORIGIN, of :- ‘the week’!
    Then wherever “The Seventh Day” within and ‘OF’ THIS presupposed unit-of- seven-days and ITS presupposed UNBROKEN recurrence through all time is the mentioned, the referred-to, or the supposed, “The-Seventh-Day-_OF-THE-WEEK_”, is the logical and natural NAME, for / of “The-Seventh-Day”.
    There is absolutely nothing – for the BIBLE-believer in any case – unprecedented or illogical or unhistorical or mysterious to be understood about ‘The Seventh Day’ as the “Seventh-Day-of-the-week”. Your problematic interpretation “the Sabbath command (is nowhere) limited to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"”, and “can include it but it is not restricted to it”, clearly is designed to impress in order to confuse.

    PS
    Like is clear you succeed to do very well, per posts in reply to yours.


    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71977
     
    #9 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 28, 2011
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  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    And the Sabbath-Seventh-dayers would have had their knives in for the Sunday-First-dayers who have their knives in for the Sabbath-Seventh-dayers today.... while no one has his knives in for the Friday-Sixth-dayers … Goes to show, hey....


     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    Take note that you are basing your position upon TRADITION and not the Scriptures. The Scriptures NOWHERE use the term "week" in connection with the institution of the creation Sabbath or the fourth commandment. Furthermore, in God's Biblical calendar found in the first five books of the Bible where you cannot find Him using any NAMES but only NUMBERS in counting time (years, months, days) the Biblical calendar is not divisable by SEVEN or by the traditional WEEK but is LUNAR and God speaks of the "twenty-ninth" day of the month.

    If your "week" position were the Biblical position then the Biblical calendar would necessarily be divided by seven BUT IT IS NOT! God would have created the rotation of the moon to be divisible by the WEEK or by SEVEN but he did not.

    The tradition of the "week" is not wrong but it becomes wrong when you limit and restrict the Sabbath law to it. The Sabbath law can include it but cannot be limited to it. Your position demands the Sabbath law be restricted to it and God Himself does not restrict the Sabbath law to it.

    I am not saying that TRADITION is wrong in regard to defining a seven day period of time as "the week" but I am saying that the BIBLICAL CALENDAR of determining the length of a month and year is not divisable by seven but is reather based upon the LUNAR month of 29th days. Hence, God does not use a WEEK measurement in His yearly and monthly calendar found in Scriptures.

    Furthermore, it is wrong in regard to the creation Sabbath and fourth commandment when TRADITION confines the Sabbath application within the "week"

    Your position is based upon TRADITION and LOGIC whereas my position is based precisely upon what the Scripture says and how the scripture uses the Sabbath law. Your position of TRADITION plus LOGIC is inconsistent with the Biblical application of the Sabbath law and therefore must be rejected and must be wrong as the only other alternative is to either accuse God of improperly applying the Sabbath law to other days and periods of time or perverting his applications.
     
    #11 Dr. Walter, May 28, 2011
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  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71977

    GE:

    Re: DW,
    “The original Sabbath commemorated a SINLESS creation where God could say "very good" and this SINLESS creation was based upon CONTINUANCE IN GOOD WORKS by Adam and Eve. Grace and mercy have nothing to do with this first creation and when sin entered in, the whole creation was no longer "very good" but corrupted and defiled by sin and reserved for destruction by fire at the end of the SEVENTH millennium.”

    GE:

    The “original Sabbath”, “commemorated”, nothing; God INSTITUTED it first time ever; how could it be ‘commemorative’?

    The “original Sabbath commemorated” NO “sinless creation” …. A “sinless creation” after Adam sinned, is the figment of your imagination.

    “Where God could say "very good"”, was ON, the Sixth Day of God’s creating after He had finished to create man and his wife, and BEFORE, this, sinless created creature, debased itself before the devil and disobeyed God before nightfall.

    God did not “say "very good"”, on the Seventh Day! God did NOT “say "very good"”, quote: “…. upon CONTINUANCE IN GOOD WORKS by Adam and Eve”! (Your capital letters!) That is your blatant lie upon which you “based” your patched-up “Position on the Fourth Commandment”.

    And that is your odious mongrelised Pelagian Arminian Freewillism. Which despicable doctrine you further embroider with asserting, “Grace and mercy have nothing to do with this first creation”! While God created originally out of and for nothing than Grace, Mercy and Love!

    Away with your hollow, empty, noisy, presumptuousness!
    You refer to the Seventh-day Adventists— they can take a few lessons from you, Dr Walter!

    Because, “when sin entered in, the whole creation was no longer "very good" but corrupted and defiled by sin and reserved for destruction by fire.” Period! And “when sin entered in” was BEFORE “in the cool of dusk” on the FIRST Sabbath Day in Eden and Paradise.

    What utter NONSENSE then is this “… at the end of the SEVENTH millennium”? It is the “continuance” of your utter NONSENSE of before it.
     
    #12 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 28, 2011
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  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Re: Dr Walter:

    “Your position is based upon TRADITION….”


    GE:

    I said, “Wherever it is said “The Seventh Day” WITH REFERENCE TO, the creation – as in Genesis 2, Exodus 20 and 31, and Hebrews 4 and Mark 2 –, the number and sequence of days AS THAT single UNIT-of-seven-days and single EVENT-of-seven-days, formed the determinative ORIGIN, of :- ‘the week’!
    Then wherever “The Seventh Day” within and ‘OF’ THIS presupposed unit-of- seven-days and ITS presupposed UNBROKEN recurrence through all time is the mentioned, the referred-to, or the supposed, “The-Seventh-Day-_OF-THE-WEEK_”, is the logical and natural NAME, for / of “The-Seventh-Day”.”


    That means the “Seventh-Day-of-the-week” is totally, Biblically-unique.

    The worldwide acceptance and use of the concept and very words, “of the week”, still, 2000 years after Christ, has not changed the fact of the fact, one bit, but has confirmed it, every day of its use.

    Civilised and barbarians alike have their worldview and framework of thought DETERMINED BY AND THROUGH AND ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANITY, whether they know it or not and whether they like it or not. And Christianity of all nations and languages, has its worldview and framework of thought determined VIA THE ENGLISH Bible Old and New Testaments, whether we know it or not and whether we like it or not. And the same applies to the association between Christianity and the history and nation of the Jews— it is worldwide Christianity that VIA ENGLISH Christianity, has its roots in ‘Judaism’, not ‘Judaism’ which has its roots in Christianity.

    Here is now where it may be rightfully claimed: “Tradition” (as you, Dr Walter, presume), “has NOTHING to do with”, the fact, the truth, or the reality “The Seventh-Day” OF THE _BIBLE_, is what is worldwide known and understood for and as “The Seventh-Day-_OF-THE-WEEK_”; which again, is WORLDWIDE known and understood – after the manner of TRADITION – as and for ‘Saturday’!

    I picked this up from somewhere the other day by an unknown to me author, ‘Obadiah’ (emphasis, GE):

    “It is entirely incorrect that the Plural for the Greek word for sabbath indicates two sabbath days. It does not mean ‘more than one sabbath’. In fact, the Singular form, sabbaton, IN AND OF ITSELF can mean ‘WEEK’, as in dis tou sabbatou, ‘twice a week’ (Luke 18:12); kata mian sabbatou, ‘on the first day of the week’ in Acts 20:7; there are not two sabbaths in that context. Didache 8:1 uses the phrase deutera sabbatwn kai pempe, ‘the second and fifth days of the week.’ Already in LXX the phrase he hemera twn sabbatwn is used many times to mean ‘the sabbath day’ (THE UNDERLYING HEBREW IS SINGULAR). The extension of the plural form sabbatwn to mean an entire WEEK is solidly established. This business about Matthew’s use of the plural form implying “two sabbaths” just isn’t true.”

    GE:

    Just as UNTRUE is the biased business about the Seventh Day in the creation story and giving of the Law does not mean “the Seventh-Day-OF-THE-WEEK”!


     
    #13 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 28, 2011
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  14. Dr. Walter

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    Not according to the wording of the fourth commandment. The Sabbath commemorates, and remembers God's creation in six days, a creation that God concludes with the words "very good."

    Not according to the writer of Hebrews. We are called upon to enter into God's rest in Hebrews 4:3 and then immediately the creation sabbath is referenced (v. 4). What kind of rest? A rest from "works" and a rest that is without sin as that is exactly what the Sabbath commemorates.

    Absolutely false! The words "very good" conclude the sixth day and all of God's creative work. Satan did not fall on the sixth day and there is not one shred of Biblical evidence to support such an idea.

    Never said the words "very good" were spoken on the seventh day. I said the sabbath commemorated a finished work upon which God concluded with "very good" and that is exactly what Genesis 1:31 states and I quote:

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    The Sabbath commemorates EVERY THING God made and this statement concludes the sixth day proving Satan could not have possibly fallen on the sixth day because if Satan had fallen before the conclusion of the sixth day, God could never have said at the closure of that day "very good."



    What crass ignorance on public display. Don't you even understand the meaning of the terms "grace" or "mercy" in regard to redemption? There is no such thing as "mercy" prior to sin as there is no need for mercy prior to sin. Mercy is not receiving just compensation for sin - there was no sin by Adam or Eve before the Fall - hence no mercy prior to the fall. Mercy demands a condemned state deserving of punishment. Grace in regard to redemption is getting what you don't deserve. Adam and Eve were not objects of God's grace prior to the fall as they did not need redemptive grace.

    The utter nonsense is what you have written. There is a seventh millinnium and the seven year sabbath, 49th year Sabbath or seven seventh are all types of it. It belongs to Israel and it is completed by the total destruction of this present creation which the seventh day sabbath commemorates. The seventh day sabbath is fulfilled by that seventh JEWISH millenium and the total destruction of the heaven and earth it commemorated.

    You are wrong, your position is wrong, your interpretation is ludricous and you accusations are nothing but hot air.
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    I have already answered this logic plus tradition type of reasoning. You have not been able to answer the problems I placed before you. All you do is simply repeat your logic plus tradition response.

    You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the sabbath law to other days than the "seventh day." The Sabbath law is the only grounds/basis for the idea of a "sabbath."

    You have not been able to answer how the fourth commandment permits God to apply the Sabbath law to other periods of time than merely a 24 hour period (month, year).

    You have not been able to answer why the Biblical calendar month and year is not divisible by seven but has a "twenty and ninth" day in it. If the "week" is God's basic and essential time measurement then why did He not create the moon, earth and sun orbits and rotations according to that essential time measurement??????? It is obvious from the account of Noah that the first calculations of months and years was strictly lunar with 30 days in the month and 360 days in the year. Just read the account of Noah. This is how God counted months and the year. 30 days is not evenly divisible by seven. 360 days is not evenly disivible by seven.

    Man has changed the calander month and years even more in many different calendars.

    My position is not dependent upon human calendar calculations at any time in human history. My position isolates seven days as a unit thus permitting the unit to continue consistently regardless of the length of the month or year by any calendar man can devise.

    My position allows the Sabbath law to be applied to any period of time (day, month, year, millennium) that God may choose.

    My position fits the obvious typology of both the Old and New Covenants.

    Your position and interpretation is Jewish, and errs greatly in that it restricts the sabbath law application to the seventh day "of the week" as devised by the Jewish calendar "week." Although that application to the Jewish calander week is not wrong, it is wrong to demand it is restricted to such an application as that very demand condemns God's own application of the Sabbath law. The Sabbath law is inclusive of such an application but cannot be restricted to such an application without condemning God Himself.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    The following statement corrected somehow ...


    "Civilised and barbarians alike have their worldview and framework of thought DETERMINED BY AND THROUGH AND ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANITY, whether they know it or not and whether they like it or not. And Christianity of all nations and languages, has its worldview and framework of thought determined VIA THE ENGLISH Bible Old and New Testaments, whether we know it or not and whether we like it or not. And the same applies to the association between Christianity and the history and nation of the Jews— Christianity VIA ENGLISH Christianity, has its roots in ‘Judaism’, not ‘Judaism’ in Christianity. : Now here is where it may be rightfully claimed: “Tradition” (as you, Dr Walter, presume), “has NOTHING to do with”, the fact, the truth, or the reality “The Seventh-Day” OF THE _BIBLE_, is what is worldwide through TRADITION, known and understood for and as “The Seventh-Day-_OF-THE-WEEK_”; which again, is WORLDWIDE known and understood – after the manner of ‘Western’, English, Christian, TRADITION – as and for ‘Saturday’! "
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:

    Now I said,
    GE:

    The “original Sabbath”, “commemorated”, nothing; God INSTITUTED it first time ever; how could it be ‘commemorative’?


    Dr Walter answered:

    Not according to the wording of the fourth commandment. The Sabbath commemorates, and remembers God's creation in six days, a creation that God concludes with the words "very good."


    GE answers DW:

    Dr Walter, you, and I, talked about the – quoting you –, “original Sabbath”. That is the Sabbath talked of in Genesis 2, the creation story; that is not “the wording of the fourth commandment” in Exodus 20 or wherever.

    Next, I have before pointed to the REAL thing with reference to which “the fourth commandment” in Exodus et al, speaks, that must be ‘commemorated, and remembered’, which (in the first place) is NOT the “six days THOU shalt labour”, but which is “The Sabbath Day” : “Remember the Sabbath Day” verse 8 = “The Rest Day” per se. Mark the “rest-idea” contained by the “Sabbath _DAY_”.

    Because God’s “REST”, is what the Fourth Commandment actually and really commands should be ‘commemorated, and remembered’. Verse 11, “Remember the Sabbath Day …. [[For]] the LORD made heaven and-earth and-everything in them in six days, and THE SEVENTH DAY : _RESTED HE_ : _WHEREFORE_ the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day and SET IT APART” : to be ‘commemorated, and remembered’ as, and for being : “The Sabbath Day” (verse 8).

    Note that the Adverb of Reason starting verse 11 in the English, does not exist in the Hebrew; it is ‘supplied’.

    In contrast, the word “WHEREFORE” used to connect GOD’S REST as reason for WHY the Sabbath must be “remembered”, literally is a HUGE word of conspicuous and direct significance for and bearing on the essence of the passage and the Commandment WHICH IS THE REST OF THE _LORD_.

    The word “wherefore", comes from in fact a combination of two words in the Hebrew, “ON”, ‘el’, and “PLACE / BASIS / FOOTING”, ‘kehn’ : “ON THIS BASIS THAT GOD ON THE SEVENTH DAY _RESTED_ … THOU SHALT REMEMBER the Seventh Day”.

    All further comment superfluous…!!!

     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2011
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Note that the Adverb of Reason starting verse 11 in the English, does not exist in the Hebrew; it is ‘supplied’. Man and both his duties of work and rest, are no more than an incidental parenthesis; it is not the thing of main importance; nor is God’s past and finished with, works of the Sixth and previous days, the real subject of ‘commemoration, and remembrance’.
    The REST OF GOD is the essence and form-determining single major factor about, for, and of “the Seventh Day : Sabbath (REST!) _OF_...” NOT man or Israeli, BUT : “THE LORD YOUR GOD”!
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Sorry ... post was delayed and therefore was duplicated.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Re:
    Dr Walter,

    What crass ignorance on public display. Don't you even understand the meaning of the terms "grace" or "mercy" in regard to redemption? There is no such thing as "mercy" prior to sin as there is no need for mercy prior to sin. Mercy is not receiving just compensation for sin - there was no sin by Adam or Eve before the Fall - hence no mercy prior to the fall. Mercy demands a condemned state deserving of punishment. Grace in regard to redemption is getting what you don't deserve. Adam and Eve were not objects of God's grace prior to the fall as they did not need redemptive grace.


    GE:


    Indeed the heart of the issue!

    The meaning of the terms "grace" or "mercy" in regard to redemption is the reason why God created at all a new and sinless world “wherein (would) dwell Righteousness” even “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”. Exactly because “there is no such thing as "mercy" prior to sin as there is no need for mercy prior to sin.” Therefore, because there was sin in his creation – because sin had crept in through the devil and his angels – “God in the beginning created the heavens and the earth” Genesis 1:1, and the STORY OF REDEMPTION OF GOD’S CREATION FROM SIN THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, STARTED.

    It is the story of the “original Sabbath” as well.

    This is what Dr Walter has not discovered yet, and I pray he may also see … in God’s own time. Meanwhile I’ll fight him and his views with sinner’s hands nevertheless.

    Therefore yes, of course, “there was no sin by Adam or Eve before the Fall - hence no mercy prior to the fall”!!! Hence Mercy and Grace began with Adam and Eve and their creation. Can’t you see?!

    “Mercy demands a condemned state deserving of punishment. Grace in regard to redemption is getting what you don't deserve.”

    AMEN!

    Mercy is receiving just compensation for your sins IN JESUS CHRIST; that is what Grace is.
    Adam and Eve were the object of God's grace _PRIOR_ to the fall as they STOOD IN NEED OF “redemptive grace” IN VIEW OF THEIR STATUS QUO THE VERY DAY _OF_THEIR CREATION.

    God’s first token of Mercy and Grace He gave Adam and Eve came right after the tragedy of their disobedience and fall when “In the cool of dusk God walking in the Garden Adam and his wife HEARD THE VOICE OF THE LORD GOD”!

    There exists no break or gap in chronological sequence between the DAYS, as there exists no break or gap between the EVENTS of the couple’s SIN on the Sixth Day of their creation and God’s GRACE on the Seventh Day after.
     
    #20 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 29, 2011
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