My thoughts on salvation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mets65, Jan 22, 2011.

  1. mets65

    mets65
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    I posted this in another thread, but it really wasn't the point of the thread so I'm going to give it it's own thread.

    If it doesn't depend on us to believe in him then what's the point? What would be the point in Jesus doing what he did if God could just make everyone saved? That's the whole point is that we find ourselves in our unrighteousness missing something and we make the conscience effort to accept him as our savior. God doesn't want a person on this earth to go to hell. No not one. So if Calvinism is true why would he elect just certain people, why not all people? Are you saying he's not powerful enough to save all? Or are you saying that he doesn't love everyone? Or that he loves some more then others? Or is their a capacity limit in heaven? The blood is efficient and sufficient regardless of our choice. If someone chooses to give someone a million dollars in this country but it's up to you to submit your claim to get it, then it's basically being left up to you. It's kind of like look I'm giving you this awesome gift but you've got to at least come get it. Saying that it's man's choice to accept Christ is not in any way downplaying what Christ did for us. It's the simple fact that God gives us the choice, and if we choose not to accept, as foolish as it may be then it's our catastrophic loss. If we don't have the choice then what's the point of even living this life? Look I know not all calvinists are anti-witnessing or anti-missions, but really if God has already elected certain people and they will be saved no matter what, then what's the point?

    Like I said the blood is effective, it's up to us to go choose it. God loves us, but like a supreme parent says look I'm not going to make that choice for you, you're going to have to do that.
     
    #1 mets65, Jan 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2011
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight
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    I won't address the other parts of your post, but I was in a Calvinistic Baptist church for years and the quote that I remember from the pastor on missions was this:

    "There are people that God has elected that haven't heard the gospel yet, and it's our mission to go and give it to them."

    :confused:
     
  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick
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    What's the point?

    The POINT is that Calvinists (who are not "Hyper-Calvinists" which is actually who you are describing) follow ALL the Scriptures found in the entire Word of God.

    Election is not salvation. Salvation is election plus effectual call, plus regeneration, plus justification, plus adoption, plus sanctification, plus faith/repentance, plus glorification. Election is but one step in the overall process.

    God tells us to go into all the world and make disciples. He tells us to take the 'good news" to all people groups of the world. He gives us examples of how that happens in Paul, Peter, John, and the rest of the Apostles. He gives us the example of Paul coming to faith on the Damascus Road, and Paul later sharing his testimony of salvation with men all over the known world. He shows us Paul arguing philosophy with the wise men of the ancient world at Mars Hill.

    There is no excuse for not doing what it is that God tells us to do, and more so, there is every reason, for we are convinced that wherever we go with the gospel, there will be elect there to hear that good news and respond to God's calling.

    I wonder why those who are not Calvinists go... Men are stupid, and left to their own devices will INVENT religion, but not turn to God. Only God can elect persons to become His children, and it is the surety of that election that drives us forward in mission.
     
  4. mets65

    mets65
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    But he has elected ALL. It's up to us to accept that. He gave every person on the earth the same opportunity. So we have to accept his salvation.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Thanks for saying that ...i applaud you! :applause::thumbs:
     
  6. glfredrick

    glfredrick
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    The Bible says, "How can they hear without a preacher?"

    Have you considered that the Holy Spirit may just use the words spoken by we humans to convict a heart? As the reading of Scripture or preaching of God's truth happens and one hears, the Holy Spirit can whisper in that still small voice, "Hear this... This is truth."

    Would you somehow limit God, just because He has elected some to salvation? This is not ALL about logic you know. We also have specific revelation from God, even if human logic cannot adequately deal with that revelation.
     
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
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    GL

    Please tell me that those of us who are not calvinists, yet "go" (share our faith with others) are not "stupid" and simply inventing our own religion. I am misunderstanding your point, correct?
     
  8. mets65

    mets65
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    I agree with you that the Holy Spirit may use our words, that it's not actually us leading someone to Christ.

    I think my whole point is that Christ elected everyone in this world, but they have to accept that offer first. Man has to make that decision on it's own. Christ wants us to come to him, but he doesn't want us to do it because he made us, he wants us to do it because we as sinners recognize that we need him.

    I sometimes think that the biggest difference between calvinists and non-calvinists is wording. The way we word things.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Ah no He has not elected all. Since you already admitted you havent studied Reformed Theology nor do you practice it.... I will just disagree with your statement & let it go at that. Besides others in here have convinced me of the complete pointlessness of even arguing it so I will just agree to disagree. You go to your church & I will go to mine. Thanks for your opinion.
     
  10. mets65

    mets65
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    You are correct I haven't studied it, but I do have my own beliefs and that's what I'm conveying. I really do want to hear some of your thoughts. I do agree to disagree. I think we can do that in a friendly way. We're both children of God.
     
  11. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
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    Mets65,

    Good Luck my friend. I wonder if you really know what you are asking.
     
  12. stilllearning

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    Hello mets65

    You asked.......
    It is true, that only the elect, will get saved.
    And it is true, that God only elected certain people.

    But what Calvinists reject, is that fact that God saw the future of every single individual that will ever be born and “He saw” deep into their heart and was able to determine, every individual that was truly going to trust Christ and get saved and he elected those individuals........
    Romans 8:29
    “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”


    and

    1 Peter 1:2
    “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    Election, is not unconditional.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    No Quantum, my position has changed from discussion to doctrine divides. Your friend Mets here has even admitted it. Im done with it. Nobody will change my mind & Im not interested in doing likewise....this sides blue in the face.

    Mets, I hope you have gotten it out of your system. And when you talk to any of us on the Reformed side about theology just be aware that we are Reformed in our Beliefs. Period & THE END. Have a good Sunday.
     
  14. mets65

    mets65
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    Please see my PM
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    So every person on earth right now has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and had someone to call them to repentance and faith? Or have read the gospel in the scriptures and responded one way or the other to the conviction of the Holy Spirit?

    When Paul preached in Athens, the Epicureans and Stoics asked him to meet with them on Mars Hill.

    Here's Acts 17:19-20
    New doctrine. Strange things. Never heard before. The ancestors of these men had never heard it. Died without ever hearing.

    Has every individual in Communist countries heard the gospel? Has every tribe in the jungles of Africa and South America heard the gospel?

    Who preached the gospel to the Auca Indians before Jim Elliott came along?

    I don't want to belabor the point, but just want to point out that no gospel was preached in Asia Minor until Paul preached it. No gospel was preached in England until somebody went there and preached it.

    Every human, without exception, in 2000 years, as heard the gospel and had an opportunity to accept or reject it?
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
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    EWF, my friend. I am not attempting to "change your mind", I dont think that is the motus operandi of anyone. Given that you (any of us) profess the person, role and function of Jesus the Christ, then we can all disagree all day long on the minute intricacies and nuances of scripture.

    I am glad you are comfortable and confident in your position and will love and respect you PERIOD.
     
  17. mets65

    mets65
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    I'm not interested in changing your mind either, I hope you have got that thought out of your system.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
    ... -- Albert Einstein
     
  19. mets65

    mets65
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    I've already admitted I was quite ignorant of Calvinism, but I was in no way condemning yours or anyone else's beliefs. I asked a couple of questions in my post and then gave my viewpoints and a simple logic as to why those are my viewpoints. I'm not trying to restart the debate of doctrine. I have no interest in even attempting to change your mind. That would be extremely disrespectful to your beliefs. I was just hoping to better understand some of your beliefs. I don't really have time right now to read a book on Calvinism as I have several other books I'm reading at the time and I work 40 hours a week on top of that and I have other duties to which I must tend. There's a lot of discussion that goes on around this board about certain topics of which I'm not very familiar. My most basic understanding of Calvinism is from when I was in a fundamental baptist school up unto the age of 14. All they did was say it was wrong without any information. I'm not interested in that type of thought or trying to prove you wrong. I'm sure it came across that way since I gave my own beliefs coupled with my questions.
     
  20. John Toppass

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    Your opinion is spot on! This is another excellent way to put the fact that God gave mankind choice!

    I know many calvinist or so they think, I find that a good majority really do not understand what a calvinist is and they really do not want to do the research on what they claim to believe. That is OK tho, because I honestly do not believe that it changes their salvation. I just hate to see those who are calvinist and those who are non-calvinist start insulting and call each other names. It does not glorify God what so ever. Besides neither side has ever come up with an original position and if they have it is probably wrong. Because the Gospel is the same now as it was when Jesus was in His ministry.
     

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