Mystery

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by psr.2, Jul 15, 2004.

  1. psr.2

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    What is this mystery?
    1 Cor. 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

    The mystery that was not known was how that Jesus Christ would be our mediator to God and do away with the Old Test. set-up.

    So when someone says that O.T. were saved the same as N.T. it is not doctrinally sound.

    The same thing is told in Eph. 3:1
    3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    In other ages was not known! They did not know! Straight from God's word to you eyes.

    Hid in God from the beginning of the world. Noone before that time knew of the gospel as we do.
     
  2. psr.2

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    I thought everyone loved a good mystery.
     
  3. MTA

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    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb. 13:8

    The "hidden wisdom" is the gospel and the "mystery", or sacred secret, was a mystery to many men among who were the "princes". Of course the princes referenced here are Herod and Caiaphas who resided in positions of authority as leaders of the Jewish nation, politically and spiritually.

    To assume the plan of salvation has ever been anything but dependent on repentance and faith is to adjudge that God is a respector of persons.
     
  4. psr.2

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    To assume that the plan of salvaton has always been what it is now is to deny scripture.
    Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    The preaching of Jesus Christ was kept secret because the new test was not in effect until the death of Christ.

    Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
    18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

    Not until the death of Christ was the gospel message as we know it today.
    God is not a respector of persons. He had a plan for those in the O.T.
    Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
    19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
    20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
    21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    The blod of their covenant was bulls and goats. Just like the bible says.
     
  5. Marcia

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    psr.2, are you saying that the OT saints were saved by sacrifices and works of the law?
     
  6. MTA

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    No one is denying Scripture, but I am afraid you are grossly misaligned in your thinking and it seems you are taking liberties with the Scriptures that simply do not harmonize with other passages.

    The blood of goats and bulls in the ceremonial law did nothing to sanctify the heart. It was representative of the cleansing of the outside, (purifying of the flesh), but it did nothing to cleanse the heart.

    I have seen your postings along this line on other threads and it is still as unsound to Baptist doctrine and the truth of God's word as it was then.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Another misconception of the Oharite cult, that want to state Paul had a DIFFERENT Gospel and we should only follow the later teachings of Paul.

    Garbage.
     
  8. HankD

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    pre-law OT saints had a limited knowledge of the coming messiah/redeemer.

    Job 19:25-26
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Later, through the Prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 53) a very detailed explanation of the Vicarious Atonement of Christ was given.

    The mystery element of the gospel is twofold 1) Gentiles would share in the Abrahamic promise and 2) that He (messiah/redeemer) would be God come IN THE FLESH born of a woman.

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    HankD
     
  9. KeithS

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    Dr. Bob,

    Your posts always crack me up. I must admit that if I see your name my ears perk up (or is it my eyes twinkle?). You come from nowhere, divebomb, and go back to noplace. [​IMG]
     
  10. psr.2

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    Great input Dr. Bob....NOT. Care to address the scripture that says it was not known in other ages or explain why we no longer have the sacrifices? Paul says himself that it is a mystery revealed to him. I'm sure that goes against the grain of what you have been taught or teach but shall we discuss some scripture this time instead of just hit and run for applause?
    I hope you can take what you dish out.
     
  11. psr.2

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    quote;
    posted July 15, 2004 09:15 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    psr.2, are you saying that the OT saints were saved by sacrifices and works of the law?

    Did you read the verses?
    The sacrifices did not get them to heaven. The sacrifices got them to paradise. Noone went to heaven prior to the cross. The O.T. saints were kept by those sacrifices until faith should come.
    Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
     
  12. psr.2

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    quote;
    No one is denying Scripture, but I am afraid you are grossly misaligned in your thinking and it seems you are taking liberties with the Scriptures that simply do not harmonize with other passages.

    The blood of goats and bulls in the ceremonial law did nothing to sanctify the heart. It was representative of the cleansing of the outside, (purifying of the flesh), but it did nothing to cleanse the heart.

    I have seen your postings along this line on other threads and it is still as unsound to Baptist doctrine and the truth of God's word as it was then.

    Why not address the scripture and show me some of your baptist doctrine in the bible?
    If you have been a baptist any length of time you know there are as many different baptist beliefs as there are baptist.
     
  13. psr.2

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    quote;
    pre-law OT saints had a limited knowledge of the coming messiah/redeemer.

    Job 19:25-26
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Later, through the Prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 53) a very detailed explanation of the Vicarious Atonement of Christ was given.

    The mystery element of the gospel is twofold 1) Gentiles would share in the Abrahamic promise and 2) that He (messiah/redeemer) would be God come IN THE FLESH born of a woman.

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    HankD

    Yes they had prophecy. Even the disciples who walked daily with Jesus on this earth throughout his ministry did not understand the gospel as we know it.
    When Christ told them he would die they said not so Lord.
    When the disciples were told that the tomb was empty the bible said it was as an idle tale to them.
    Now is a person who believes the gospel is an idle tale saved? No.
    So were the disciple going to hell if they had died then? No.
    They were law abiding ,pork abstaining, Sabbath keeping Jews. They had no understanding of the gospel as we know it today until Cgrist opened the scripture to them.
    Luke 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet.
    41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
    42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
    43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
    49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

    All of these thing can be understood if we will take the words of God for what they say and not try to make them line up with our doctrines.
     
  14. psr.2

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    Please everyone look back at the posts. The only person other than me to put any scripture in the post was Hank.
    How can we discuss scripture if you don't use any?
     
  15. HankD

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    You proved my point psr.2, the gospel was there in the OT all along waiting for the Messiah/Redeemer to fulfill and reveal the details.

    To tell you the truth I really don't know what the object(s) of the faith of the OT believer was for them to be justified. I suspect it had to do with the person of Jehovah-Elohim and His Promise of the Seed of the Woman, the Redeemer/Messiah and to whomsoever the Spirit revealed it.

    The Scripture states that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.".

    Those under the Law had the prophets when they fell under the curse of the law:

    Isaiah 53:5-6
    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed
    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    ...
    11 Therefore will I divide him a portion
    with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Isaiah 9:6-7
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    HankD
     
  16. psr.2

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    quote;
    The Scripture states that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.".

    Yes Hank that's right. Did you look up the cross reference for that verse. Abraham believed Gods promise that his seed would be as many as the stars of heaven. That is where Abraham believed God.
     
  17. KeithS

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    Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness by God because he believed that God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5). That was the essence of his faith. He was not counted as righteous because he believed God would give him an heir. Cross references are not inspired.
     
  18. psr.2

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    I hope the words of God are inspired Keith.?.?
    Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


    Abraham was not looking forward to the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Wilt Keith know?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Abraham justified by works? HEY KEITH!
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Works and faith in Abrahams day Keith.
    Now don't say that the bible is not inspired.
    Please deal with the scripture as it appears and tell me what you believe about Abrahams roghteousness.
     
  19. Marcia

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    No, but he believed God; he had faith in God -- that is what his salvation was based on.

    The sacrifices only purified the flesh.

    The sacrifices did not give them salvation.

    It was always by faith. It seems God has given us these passages to show that. If they had obeyed without faith, it would have done no good. It was salvation and righteousness through faith.
     
  20. psr.2

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    So then we all agree that it was a different gospel in the O.T. Yes it was by faith. However it was not the faith of looking forward to the finished work of Christ.

    We now look back at Calvary with full understanding and trust in the work of Christ for our salvation.

    To say that salvation in the O.T. and the N.T. were exactly the same is to deny scripture.
     

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