N-O-I-N-U-M-M-O-C

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Deacon, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. Deacon

    Deacon
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    We did communion backwards today (cup then bread).

    The church’s dragon grumbled to some of the pastors and deacons that he was insulted that we didn’t do it the way that our Lord did it in 1 Corinthians 11.

    The change was done intentionally to illustrate a point made by Isaiah in chapter 53, regarding the meaning of the words “bruised” and “crushed”.

    He does have a point though; whenever it is mentioned, it is the bread then the cup.

    Does it matter?
    Is there some significance in having the bread before the cup?

    Rob
     
  2. Glory2God

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    [​IMG] Rob,
    The body must be struck before one bruises, the body must be pierced before one bleeds.
    Dave

    1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. [​IMG]
     
  3. USN2Pulpit

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sorry to make light, but I think many of us know this person!
     
  4. PastorSBC1303

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    Probably it doesn't matter which comes first or second. However, I would generally stick to the order of Christ in Scripture.
     
  5. Craigbythesea

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    Some individuals find that it is nice to have the grape juice to wash the bread off their teeth; others find that the bread helps to freshen the mouth after the consumption of the wine; but I believe God is much more concerned about our hands being clean and our heart being pure than He is about formalities of protocol.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Deacon

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    I think we would all agree, but a change with a purpose once in a while may open some eyes (and mouths apparently).

    Isaiah 53:5

    But he was wounded[1] for our transgressions[2], he was bruised[3] for our iniquities[4]:

    [1] WOUNDED: (chalal) to wound (fatally), bore through, pierce.

    [2] TRANSGRESSIONS: (peša) …is sometimes set in contrast to the actions of faithful (Prov 28:21) and righteous (Ps 37:38) men. In one instance, Israel is accused of engaging in rebellion “since your birth” (Isa 48:8). The acts of transgression, i.e. going beyond the limits of God’s laws, have impact on inner attitudes which create deceitfulness (Isa 59:13) or a distorted love for this “independence” from God (Amos 4:4). It may dull one’s knowledge of the right (Hos 8:1; Ps 51:13) and be a rigid refusal to accept correction (Jer 2:8, 29; Hos 7:13; Zeph 3:11; Amos 4:4). Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament

    [3] BRUISED: (daka'), crushed, pounded, beaten, broken.

    [4] INIQUITIES: ('aown) to bend, to twist, to distort, perversion, to deviate from the way…
    “Moreover, as the above references indicate, it denotes both the deed and its consequences, the misdeed and its punishment. Both notions are present, but sometimes the focus is on the deed (“sin”), and at other times on the outcome of the misdeed (“punishment”), and sometimes on the situation between the deed and its consequence (“guilt”). As an example of the focus on the misdeed demanding punishment: “this sin will become for you like a high wall, cracked and bulging, that collapses suddenly, in an instant (Isa 30:13; cf. Ezk 18:30; 44:12; Hos 5:5; Job 31:11, 28). With the emphasis on the punishment: ”Arise … or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city (cf. Jer 51:7; Ps 39:12; 106:43; Job 13:26; 19:29; Ezr 9:7). With the emphasis on “guilt”: “upon me be the blame” TWOT

    Rob
     
  7. WallyGator

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    This happened in my home church several years ago and oh yes the dragon did roar (I think there must be at least one dragon in each church). When the new young pastor explained his reason, it solidified his acceptance greatly
     
  8. GODzThunder

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    Well I have always been told that the story of salvation is pictured in the communion. The bread first, is without levan which represents sin. To receive salvation you must first turn away from your sin, be willing to put it out of you life (repent of your sins). Second, you must turn to Jesus and accept his sacrifice, accept him as Lord and savior. The cup represents the blood of the new testament. That would justify having the bread first then the cup BUT I doubt that was what was going on when your "dragon" grumbled. His reason was probably just bumping tradition upset him.
     
  9. Glory2God

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    [​IMG] Keep in mind, WE are the ones that sent him to the cross. You gotta get through the body to get to the blood. If the body wasn't put forth as the sacrafice, we never would have gotten to the blood. It's like going for the forgiveness(wine first) without considering the price paid!!!

    I Cor11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

    This is not something to be taken lightly, note what Paul says in the following:

    1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
    2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

    Let God's word be the final authority and you can't go wrong!! [​IMG]
     
  10. R. Charles Blair

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    Luke's account seems to suggest a different order
    (though not definite): Lk. 22:17-20, unless this is the Passover rather than the first Lord's supper. The latter seems most likely, as Judas is still present (v. 21), and went out before all the meal was complete (Jn. 13:26-30), so that the others simply thought he was going to buy more supplies. [In passing, this is clear proof that it was not the regular time of Passover, or no place to buy supplies would have been open, nor would the priests have been in the temple; the Passover was eaten in homes. Only a "skeleton crew" might have been in the temple, not the leaders who could have dealt with Judas. Christ died at the right hour, 3 p.m., to be our Passover Lamb without blemish; if the right hour, surely the right day!} Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    There are four cups of wine in the Pesach Seder, two of which are before dinner, two after.

    The afikomen (dessert) matzoh is a special ceremony following dinner.

    Our Lord used the afikomen followed by the 3rd cup of wine - the cup of redemption - as the basis for His remembrance.

    Figure there is reason for following the ancient ceremony the way it was established.
     
  12. Deacon

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    Pastor Bob, I forgot that each cup had a different title in the ceremony of the Passover.

    The 3rd cup is the cup of redemption, what significance of the first 2 cups of wine, and the last cup?


    Rob
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    The Four Cups of wine used in the Passover seder symbolize the four distinct redemptions promised by God to the Hebrews as told in Exodus 6:6-7. (1) "I will take you out of Egypt", (2) "I will deliver you from Egyptian slavery", (3) "I will redeem you with a demonstration of my power", and (4) "I will acquire you as a nation".

    The first cup of wine drunk for kiddush (blessing)
    The second cup of wine drunk just before the main meal
    The third cup of wine drunk after the "Grace After Meals" ritual
    The fourth cup of wine drunk after the conclusion of "Hallel" which the near the end of the Passover seder.

    [Jews fill a small cup or small wine glass with wine at four different points in the Passover seder and drink each cup of wine. Drinking from The Four Cups also tells us that we can actively pursue these goals ourselves, meaning that we can actively free ourselves from whatever enslaves us. - copied]
     
  14. Glory2God

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    Bob,
    Where EXACTLY do you find these four cups of wine in the bible??? And how do you figure Jesus as you say "Our Lord used the afikomen followed by the 3rd cup of wine - the cup of redemption - as the basis for His remembrance" Where is this mentioned in the bible??? Maybe I'm a dum-dum, but I don't recall reading this anywhere in the Old Testament. I wouldn't say Jesus did that unless I could back it up with the bible. The seder, as I understand it, is nothing more than Jewish tradition added on to God's commandment many years after the command was given in Exodus.
     
  15. robycop3

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    Mr. Blair:

    Many Scriptures plainly state this was the PASSOVER. And certainly some ROMAN businesses coulda been open.

    Jesus, by his authority as God added the Communion and the foot-washing. But, as the completely-sinless Jewish man, he also observed the Passover.
     
  16. Glory2God

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    Cranston,
    Incredibly, I find myself in perfect agreement with you.
    Dave [​IMG]
     
  17. R. Charles Blair

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    Robycop3 - Of course it was the Passover; no one questions that. My point is that it was not being eaten at the normal time, since Christ was to be our perfect Passover at the right hour of the right day (by the way, of the right year). Remember there is a provision in Numbers for eating a month late; that wouldn't have been of any benefit here, so the Lord of the Sabbath also exercised His right as Lord of the Passover.


    As to "Roman businesses" being open, think of how many times recently Orthodox Jews have stoned busses running on their Sabbath, etc. - and if Jesus kept the law perfectly, as He did, would His closest followers have thought He was breaking it?

    No way to get "three days and three nights" out of Friday, of course, not even "parts of three nights." But Thursday solves that issue. That was a "High" or double Sabbath- first day of the feast of unleavened bread, then the normal weekly Sabbath, so that Jesus stayed in the tomb over the highest point of the law, which can only kill, then left the ceremonial law in the tomb when He was raised (Colossians 2).

    One of my former students who did not agree with this decided to research Jewish authorities, to prove me wrong; she (a pastor's wife) has written a lengthy paper documenting the Thursday crucifixion as a result.
    All of us can learn (even me! I never thought of any Roman businesses being allowed in Jerusalem, but there may have been, since the Romans were certainly in power; however, I seriously doubt that Jews bought from them. In my home town in the coal fields of southern Illinois, there were 14 grocery stores (800 population), because the Poles would not buy from the Slovaks, nor the Russians from the French, nor the Hungarians from the Slavs, etc., etc. - 14 nationalities, 14 stores, and - by the way - 14 saloons! Ethnic tastes and, sometimes, ethnic hatreds, run deep; resentment toward the occupiers would doubtless have prevented Jews from doing much business with them, and the Pharisees would have done everything possible to keep them from opening on any "High Holy Day," including the most potent force with Rome, bribery. But thanx for the new thought! Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28
     

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