Name, Rank, and Number

Discussion in '2007 Archive' started by Ps104_33, Apr 7, 2007.

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  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    "Before we proceed, two things should be stated for the record. First, it is obviously wonderful that the crew are back in Blighty and reunited with their families. Second, I have never been held hostage or even boarded a ship to check that its cargo papers were in order. Nor have I played international football against Andorra. But we can none the less expect certain standards from those who volunteer to perform these various duties on our grateful behalf. Now that is out of the way, it seems reasonable to at least wonder whatever happened to only divulging one's name, rank and number"

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2051969,00.html
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again.

    If you have no scruples about stalking, torturing, beating,
    threatening, killing any number of people - one
    can get 2/3rds of the general populaltion to
    agree with anything you want them to agree with
    in three hours.

    For 99% compliance it takes about three days (72 hours).

    If you torture 1,000,000 people for a ten days (240 hours)
    999,990 will give in; 9 have enough control of their own
    body to stop their heart; and 1 will stand firm.

    Sure makes me wonder about those people who
    insist that the Church Age Saints will go through the
    Tribulation Period and because there is no OSAS*,
    only the survivors will go into the Millennial Messianic
    Kingdom (if any, heaven otherwise).


    * OSAS = Once Saved, Jesus assures you are Always Saved

    * Caveat: No, I didn't do a sample to get these numbers.
    I did read a lot of books about torture

    ((Interesting side note: About ten years ago the Department
    of Defense issued a statement saying you can
    tell your captor living conditions information like if you
    want the slop or the swill, if you have bed bugs, your
    date of birth (for identity purposes), and etc.))
     
  3. Martin

    Martin
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    I don't know how American soldiers are trained for this kind of situation and I certainly can't compare/contrast the difference between American and British training. However, having said that, I will not say anything bad about what these sailors did. If these sailors had only given their "name, rank, etc" they very well might not have survived. They survived so they must have done something right. I will not question them. If I had been one of these sailors I would have confessed to almost anything the Iranians had told me to. I am not a hero and I am not about to die simply to show how brave I am.
     
  4. billwald

    billwald
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    Well, they didn't give the enemy any useful information.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Torture is NOT a good way to collect data.
    Torture is NOT an average way to collect data.
    Tortute is a bad way to collect data.

    Torture is the fastest way to get people to
    agree with you. However, they will kill you
    first chance they get. Mean people torture.
    The average life span of a person who
    tortures is TWO YEARS (before they themselves
    are tortured and confess to bad doings.

    In the Roman empire there were different
    rules for the Roman Citizen, the Empire Citizen,
    and the slave. The testimony of a slave in
    a trial could only be give UNDER TORTURE.

    A lot of bad data was collected.

    When a communist regiem takes over, they
    get a lot of bad data by torture and destroy
    all people who know how to maintain the
    infrastructure - a stupid arangement.

    Torture is a bad way to collect data.
    But if you are mean as the devil - you
    can have lots of 'fun' for a couple of years.
     
  6. Baptist Believer

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    Back during the 1991 Gulf War, I remember hearing a report regarding American training in this regard. As I remember, American soldiers are told that they may participate in propaganda broadcasts in order to avoid torture because everyone knows that they are being forced to say things under duress. Rather than help the enemy with the broadcasts, it actually makes them look bad. By taking away the stigma of doing propaganda, it takes away the effect of the enemy using it and makes the situation of the prisoners more tolerable and safer.

    I imagine that British soldiers have been trained in similar ways.
     
  7. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    There have been many soldiers in the past who have died because they would not cooperate or give the info requested of them. We are only required under the Geneva convention to give name, rank, and serial number. Military law in the United States requires no cooperation with the enemy. It is illegal and subject to court martial.

    Thos who have stood their ground and did not cooperate with the enemy in the past and will do so in the future do not do it just to be brave. Such implications are rather immature. Our mighty soldiers have given their lives and held back cooperation in order to defend this country. And while Patriotism is dispised and courage is maligned I thank God for the sacrifice of our soldiers both past, present, and future. And those who will not honor them nor be willing to do the same should stay home and put on a skirt.

    God Bless America!
     
  8. Salty

    Salty
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    Actually the time honored "name,rank & serial number" is NOT the only information required to be given. Check out section Article 17 of Part 3 of the Geneva convention http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm


    Sarge Salty
     
    #8 Salty, Apr 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2007
  9. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    This doesnt really differ from what I said.
     
  10. Terry_Herrington

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    What size skirt do you wear, pastor? :laugh:
     
  11. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond
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    Amazing that there are people who would question the behavior of a person or group who was captured by an enemy. I have absolutely no respect for someone who would do that.
     
  12. Magnetic Poles

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    Amen!

    Besides, Bush doesn't like the Geneva Convention, so this is what happens. Once one side throws away the rules, you can expect the other side to do likewise. Maybe the Iranians considered the Brits to be "Enemy Combatants". We are holding people at Gitmo and other camps, without trial and indefinitely. Why were the Brits considered "hostages", while people being held against the law by the U.S. not?
     
  13. mnw

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    Poles, the difference being that one group of people were in uniform and fighting for a nation who, despite the beginning of the conflict, were at the time under a UN mandate.

    There is no excusing Iran's actions.

    If your method of warfare is to kill innocents on purpose then you do not deserve any "rights".

    I know, I know, the US, UK and many other nations have seen innocents killed. But they died as an unfortuante consequence of the main object of killing enemy soldiers.
     
  14. Bro. Curtis

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    Then you don't respect me.
     
  15. carpro

    carpro
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    And he has no respect for:

    Articles of the Code of Conduct

    Article I

    I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

    Article II

    I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

    Article III

    If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

    Article IV

    Should I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Article VI

    I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    I'm glad I didn't have these guys watching my back when I was in the Persian Gulf.

    I believe these guys were under the U.N. flag anyways, so it's more of a slap to them than Britain.

    Imagine, sailors that don't fight, and then get rich selling their story. And I'm the guy who nobody respects.
     
  17. carpro

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    It does seem they turned confessor/propagandist just a tad too readily.:tear:
     
  18. mnw

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    It would not have been a fight, it would have been a slaughter! They were outnumbered and outgunned. Only fools, not the brave, would have fought in such conditions.

    I believe they behaved in the best way. Iran is clearly pushing to cause an international incident and the actions of these servicemen and woman helped avert that.

    As for them selling their stories, how many millions did the media make by playing their story over and over?

    Now, I am not sure I agree with them selling their stories, and not all are by the way, but if the authorities give them the go ahead then fair enough.
     
  19. mnw

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    Also, while I believe whole heartedly in the move to go into Iraq, I do think some US military leaders are getting it wrong.

    Much of this war is now about "winning hearts and minds" and clearly the US leader's tactics toward this end are not working.

    I don't think we should be like France and just roll over and play dead, but we don't need to shoot first and ask questions later either.
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

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    I doubt that. In a war zone, every square inch of sea is mapped out. I question how this vessel was allowed to even come within 100 miles of a boat under U.N. control.

    Iran will cause an international incident, no matter how many times they get their butts kissed. Enough, allready.

    I don't care. Doesn't matter

    Well, I agree with you 95% of the time, but not here.
     
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