Nazarites and Israelites: liars, deceived, or just ordinary religious people?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Nazaroo, Dec 30, 2007.

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  1. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    This is such a good topic, and appears to have drawn such incredible concern and interest, that I just had to give it its own thread.

    My opening thesis is simple.

    I am Nazarite. I don't see this as any kind of 'lie', self-deception, wishful thinking, or confusion of terms. I don't find this statement, and what I mean by it, to be in any kind of conflict with my self-description as a Christian.

    At the same time, I am quite willing to respect and honour the thousands of modern Nazarites who are NOT Christians. Both they and Christian Nazarites like me are pretty confident we both mean the same thing, and that one can be either a Christian or a Jew, and also be a Nazarite.

    I dare say, even certain groups of people that both mainstream Christians like myself, and orthodox Jews would consider NEITHER Christian NOR Jewish, would also be accepted as Nazarites by both parties (Christian and Jewish Nazarites).

    That is, to fine tune this even further, being a 'Nazarite' is not a sect, or a religion, nor is it the personal exclusive property of Israelites (ancient) or Jews (modern) or Christians. It is based very simply on the premise that one who is or wishes to be known as a Nazarite knows quite clearly what he means and intends.

    He means that he has committed a part of his religious or spiritual activities to taking vows on the Nazarite model as given in the Torah (Numbers 6), which is quite uniform in text and meaning between Christians and Jews.

    The modern 'Nazarite' takes his vows quite seriously, believes they are legitimate and authentic expressions of the same beliefs and activities as ancient Nazarites so self-identified and proclaimed, and sees no conflict in his identity in heart, spirit and mind with Nazarites of old.

    Like the Christian, the Jew, the Chessmaster,and the skateboard expert, a modern Nazarite quite strongly believes that NAZARITES as he and his fellow living 'Nazarites' define and recognize them, are the BEST guides as to what and who a Nazarite is.

    No Jew would tolerate a non-Jew telling him who is and who isn't a Jew, nor would any Christian (regarding Christians). And neither would a Nazarite. Every modern Nazarite I have talked to and fellowshipped with, has been in strong agreement on most of what I have written here today.

    While modern 'Nazarites' may differ among themselves as to details regarding the keeping of vows and the question of interpretation of parts of the vow, they are very much united on the issue that a modern 'Nazarite' is as authentic and legitimate as an ancient one. In fact, modern 'Nazarites' are more convincingly identified as true Nazarites, because they can be observed, documented, reasoned with, and otherwise examined as to the fidelity and meaning of their vows.

    As a long-practising modern Nazarite, I feel fully qualified to both speak about what it takes, what its like, and why it is a legitimate Judaeo-Christian activity to be involved in today.

    I am NOT recruiting others to be Nazarites however. By its very nature, the voluntary Nazarite Vow is a personal and intimate choice one makes before God. (Man's observation or approval is superfluous and irrelevant.)

    I am not starting this thread to 'prove' Nazarites exist or that Nazarite vows 'work'. I am only freely giving my personal testimony about my personal experience. Other Nazarites (modern and ancient) may vary in their opinions and views. That is not my concern.

    Obviously many NON-Nazarites will have their own opinions. That is not my concern either.

    But just as any person who has found something great that they feel truly good about and enjoy, that they know in their heart is useful and healthy, honest and practical, I am happy to share my thoughts and experience with you.

    Remember, I am not here to 'convince' anyone that I am a Nazarite or that being a Nazarite has benefits. You can take it or leave it. You can be tolerant or judgemental. But if you are confused, or curious I can answer some questions.

    If you think you have some important point or case to make, feel free to do so. But make it coherent. Make it scientifically and historically accurate. Make it theologically sound. Don't expect that mere gainsaying or ridicule, or maltreatment will make any headway with me.

    I will apply the mind of a Berean to all that you have to offer.

    Peace,
    Nazaroo
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Today, there are a number of people who claim to be Nazarites.

    Yet not one person could truly make and keep a true Nazarite vow today. Why?



    We have no priests to perform the required rituals and sacrifices associated with the Nazarite vows.


    When the Nazarite vow was accomplished the head was shaved and there had to be burnt offerings and sin offerings offered upon the altar. If they are not done, none can truly be a Nazarite today.



    Since the laws of Moses declare the burnt offerings and the sin offerings were to be a part of that vow, and Scripture clearly tells us that burnt offerings have been done away with, one cannot be a Nazarite no matter how much one claims to be.
     
  3. Joe

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    Ok.....So you are a Nazarite. The Christian title is a "self-description" as you state taking a back seat to your true identity as a Nazarite?
    You must be a Christian "A follower of Christ" in order to be saved. Otherwise, you know where you will end up. Nazarites who are NOT christians (as you title them) will not be saved. You should not "honor" them.
    I don't see the purpose of including this statment unless you expected someone to reply as I did. Obviously, your self-identification as a Nazarite is overshadowing your understanding of what a Christian is. We must speak the truth, even if the recipient refuses to "tolerate" it.
    Very sad
    By who?

    Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Whether the "created thing" is found in the Bible or not, makes no difference.

    .
     
    #3 Joe, Dec 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2007
  4. donnA

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    I would like to know what this means to you. To me it means you fit your description of a christian, you need to fit God's, therefore you wouldn't be 'self described'


    Since the bible gives the guide lines for a nazarite vow, it seems some want to make up their own rules, that and the fact standingfirmin Christ stated the need of a priest9which no longer exsists) seems to me it's a bunch of people wanting to make up theri won religion and call it bilical, which is is nt since it does not follow scripture(priest making sacrifice).Since it absoutely can not follow scripture, it sounds more like a jewish sect, or a cult.
    If a person wants to live dedicated to God, scripture tells us to do that by following Jesus.


    hmm, sound slike a christian, but you don't have to be a christian to be nazarite.
    Are there now jewish nazarites in the bible?
     
  5. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    Thank you for admitting an obvious historical and current political FACT.



    Who needs priests? A modern Nazarite doesn't think either the 'rituals' or the moronic 'priest' is required in order to take and perform a Nazarite Vow.

    This is because the ESSENTIAL part, the CORE part, the HEART of a Nazarite vow is the VOW.

    Christians are in exactly the same boat. And they solve the problem of the destruction of the Temple and the lack of a centralized priestly authority in exactly the same way.

    Christians don't need priests. Christians don't need a Temple. Christians ARE the priests. The body of Christ IS the Temple, for now.

    Modern Nazarites are not deluded, or in any kind of denial about the absence of duly appointed priests, or the historical destruction of the Temple. They openly acknowledge that:

    a) the temple was destroyed.

    b) those who would qualify as 'priests' under the old Torah don't qualify today.


    But that doesn't mean that there are no 'Cohens' (priests), or that those who are descended from Aaron are not entitled to call themselves Aaronites, Cohens, or 'priests'.



    Wrong. What makes a Nazarite vow a 'truly Nazarite' vow is the vow itself, and the spirit in which it is performed.

    The rest is mere surface appearance, and your judgment is a judgment by appearances only.

    You could apply exactly the same reasoning to the Jews.

    Since the laws of Moses declare the burnt offerings and the sin offerings were to be a part of Torah, and the Scripture clearly tells us that they have been done away with, one cannot be a Jew or an Israelite no matter how much one claims to be.

    Obviously this argument is completely absurd, and no modern Jew or Israelite would accept it, even though in fact various modern Neo-Nazi groups actually say things exactly like this.

    [ Personal attack removed ]

    But real Christians don't believe such arguments. They accept and respect that Jews are Jews. Jews handle the problem of the destruction of the Temple and the problem of being unable to fulfill certain parts of Torah in their own way, and so do Christians.

    There is no essential difference in the predicament that Jews, Christians, and Nazarites are in. The Temple is destroyed. And Nazarites do not actually solve this problem with some new 'third' interpretation or solution to the problem.

    Christian Nazarites accept the Christian solution to the problem of the destruction of the Temple.

    Jewish Nazarites accept the Jewish solution to the problem of the destruction of the Temple.

    As a Christian I prefer and accept the Christian solution. That doesn't make Nazarites magically 'vanish', anymore than it makes Jews magically vanish.


    Peace,
    Nazaroo
     
    #5 Nazaroo, Dec 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2007
  6. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Your reasoning is unBiblical.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Tell me Nazaroo, in an earlier post you mentioned you had renewed your so-called Nazarite vows. Did you shave your head bald when your previous vow was completed?
     
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    Nazaroo, who do you say Jesus is?
     
  9. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    Your concern that my Christian obligations and beliefs might be taking a 'backseat' is a legitimate one.

    However, I can reassure you that this is not the case. I am a Christian first, and I take Nazarite vows second.

    As a Christian I agree with you that ultimately SALVATION is not dependant upon keeping Nazarite vows, but is a gift, the grace of God, enabling men to partake in a new future beyond this life.

    Nazarite vows are also a gift of God, for those with the opportunity to perform them.

    As to 'unsaved' Nazarites who are not Christians, it is my belief that they are on a path which must in the end result in meeting and accepting Christ as King and Saviour.

    That they do not know Christ now disturbs me, but no more than the fact that many members of my own family and community appear also to me as non-Christian.

    For that matter, many 'Christians' appear to me as non-Christian in behaviour and action. I don't 'judge' them in the sense that I assume or claim they are dead, but I compare their behaviour to the role-model and guidelines in the NT, and I try to avoid making the same mistakes. This is discernment rather than 'judgment' in the prejorative sense.

    I meant 'honour' in the same sense as I honour the Jews as Jews, and Muslims as Muslims. I don't try to deny their own self-identity, but I honour it, and give them their due respect.

    God has filled the world with many kinds of people. Its not my place to be telling them WHO they are.


    However, I don't feel in any way that performing Nazarite vows overshadows my Christian walk. In fact I find it intensifies it.

    We are all commanded and encouraged to be holy.

    "Be holy, for I am holy. says the LORD".

    I don't "refuse to tolerate" your truth. I am waiting to see if there is any kind of objection that can stand up to the light. So far I am finding nothing of substance to modify my experience.

    In my view, by anyone making any kind of historical inquiry or scientific investigation of the matter. One begins with observable facts and reasons intelligently concerning that which is not directly accessable or available, like the distant past.


    Again we are in agreement.

    I certainly have no interest in idolatry of any kind, literal, abstract, theoretical, or even vague 'magical thinking'.

    Peace,
    Nazaroo
     
  10. rbell

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    This accusation is below the belt and shows no class.
     
  11. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    Making the accusation doesn't make it so.

    Why don't you demonstrate your claims?


    Yes. Although it is not an important part of the vow, anymore than burning the hair is, I did carry out this part of the vow when renewing, since it is easy and I haven't any reason not to do so.

    The parts of the Torah we are not obligated to carry out are those parts that are obviously impossible to carry out.

    There is to me no need to forsake every tradition or minor instruction surrounding a vow. In fact, the spirit of the vow would suggest a strong attitude about details where they can be done.
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

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    He has attacked me many times in the past. I am used to it.

    Sad that he has to result to such because people try to show him the truth.

    He may have taken vows, but they are not Nazarite vows. Elements of the Nazarite vows are missing.

    Modern Nazarite? God does not allow us to write our own rules.
     
  13. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    Its a legitimate question.

    If it talks and walks like a duck, it might very well be a duck.

    I am not interested in 'class', only truth.

    He's a big boy, he can answer it for himself.

    I'm still waiting for the answer.

    There are some 50,000 KKK and Neo-Nazi "Christians" in North America, walking among us. Some are honest enough to speak their positions openly. Others reveal their true nature by accident.

    We will wait and see.

    Peace,
    Nazaroo
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    If it walks and talks like a Nazarite, it must be a Nazarite.

    Since you have not fulfilled the true Nazarite vows, ...
     
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    Again, Nazaroo, who do you say Jesus is?
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
     
  17. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    This is a fair question, and a good test.

    As a Christian, I can take this on with joy and enthusiasm.

    Jesus first and foremost, is the Messiah, the Christ, the Annointed One, the King of Israel, the Special Prophet prophesied by Moses himself, the Coming Elijah.

    He is all those things and more:

    Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. He is not just 'a son of God', as in some special title granted an ordinary man.

    Jesus' origin is different than the origins of ordinary men.

    Jesus is 'from above', He comes from heaven.

    Men are 'from below'; they are made out of the dust of the ground.

    Jesus is immortal: He cannot be killed or destroyed.

    Jesus is the Light: the Great Light that overcomes all darkness.

    Jesus is the same Light that enlightens all people. Wherever there is real light, that light is from Jesus.

    Jesus is the Agent of Creation. By Jesus all things were created, and by His permission all things come to pass.

    Jesus was alive and witnessing the creation of the universe long before there ever was a man born. He saw the making of the heavens, the birth of the stars.

    Jesus is the manifestation of the true glory of God the Father of all. Whatever we know about God that is reliable and true is found in the actions and teachings of Jesus.

    Jesus is the ultimate Judge. All judgment has passed into His hands from the Father of all.

    Jesus is the Embassador for God Himself. God does not give the Spirit by measure, and when Jesus speaks, GOD speaks, and we should heed Him.

    To me personally,
    Jesus is Lord and Master. I am His servant, and servant to no other.
    But because of Jesus' will, I will try to serve all others in the course of serving God.

    Jesus is my personal saviour. Jesus has saved my life many times, more than I even know. Jesus has healed me many times, more than I have deserved.

    Jesus is my friend. Jesus has revealed to me His personal and most intimate and important truths, through His word in the Gospel of John, as He said He would. How can anyone express the love of my Creator for me?

    Jesus is my hero. He is the most awesome person I have ever heard about or had come near me.

    Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, died, was buried, and rose again, because death itself could not hold Him.

    Jesus ascended into heaven and is at the right hand of God the Father.

    But Jesus sent His Messenger, the Spirit of Holiness, the Comforter, the Revealer of all truth, to be with us who receive Jesus and His message today.

    That Holy Spirit is accessable to us as a 'downpayment', reassuring us of an eternal life to come, spent with Jesus and the other saints on the other side of death.

    If all were written of the things that Jesus has done and is, the whole world could not contain the books.

    Who is even qualified to say everything that Jesus is? Not I.

    Peace,
    Nazaroo
     
  18. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    Fair is fair: Now who do YOU say Jesus is?
     
  19. Amy.G

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    Good description of Jesus, but you left out a few details. Such as why did He come to earth? What was His purpose?
     
  20. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo
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    Now you're avoiding my question.

    Why don't you take this one?

    Why did He come to earth?
    What was His purpose?

    Peace,
    Nazaroo
     
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