Necessity of Sin

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jbh28, Jul 8, 2013.

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The Necessity of Sin

  1. Sin was necessary, and God couldn't do anything about it.

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  2. Sin was necessary to serve a greater purpose, God could have prevented it

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  3. Sin wasn't necessary, it serves to purpose in God's plan

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  4. other

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  1. jbh28

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    In chatting with another poster in a thread, I saw that our topic was not with the OP, so I figured I would create a poll. Was sin necessary? My view is that sin was necessary to serve a purpose, but God could have prevented it. God was/is not powerless over sin. We will have a world that there is no sin. God allowed man to sin to serve a purpose.

    1. God is good/holy
    2. God is great/omnipotent/sovereign
    3. Evil exist

    some reject number 2, God couldn't prevent sin. some reject number 3, evil doesn't really exist. some reject number 1, God isn't really good.

    I accept all 3. Difficult to understand? Yes, but that's what the Bible teaches.
     
    #1 jbh28, Jul 8, 2013
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  2. Jope

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    I view it as a rebel government that is in subordination to a good government.

    Satan is this rebel government, and he is in subordination to God and His government.

    When Satan works evil in the earth, the evil is attributed to Satan (1John 3:8; Job 1-2). "Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch [Job's] bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand [thus proving that Satan wrought the sickness that was done to Job]" (Job 2:4-6, KJV, italic emphasis mine).

    Yet, the evil, since the government that Satan works in belongs to God, is attributed to God's doing (Job 42:11): "the evil that the LORD had brought" (KJV, italic emphasis mine); (Job 2:3): "[Satan] movedst [God]...to destroy" (KJV).

    Just like, if the evil government were to work evil, and answered to and still belonged to the government of the good, the higher good government is going to be responsible for that evil done.
     
    #2 Jope, Jul 9, 2013
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  3. Winman

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    Jesus said sin is necessary, so it could not have been prevented, even by God. Otherwise it could not be said to be necessary.

    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

    God by his very loving nature MUST allow us choice which enables sin, it cannot be prevented.

    That said, once sin has been committed, God can justly punish and prevent future sin. But he cannot prevent original sin.

    It is like our own laws, we believe all men are given certain unalienable RIGHTS from God (they are called RIGHTS because they are RIGHT). This freedom allows men to commit crime if they choose, it cannot be prevented. Now, once they have committed crime, then we can justly imprison them and prevent them from committing future crime, but we cannot prevent original crime.

    God could not have created a world without sin, as he by nature MUST give us freedom of choice. This enables sin, sin is NECESSARY as Jesus said.

    Heaven is different. Men choose in this life whether they will be holy or unholy in the next life. Those who choose Jesus will be given the new nature and new body (which they freely chose) and will be unable to sin. Those who choose sin will be sinful forever. Sin will never cease to exist, but it will be punished and put away in the lake of fire forever.

    Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    Rev 22:11 describes the next life. In heaven there will be no sin. But in this life sin is necessary and cannot be prevented, even by God.
     
  4. DrJamesAch

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    God must have been so miserable with just the 3 of them all by Himself and got so lonely that they decided to create sin. If sin was NECESSARY and God knowing such from eternity past, sin would have to be eternally existent in order to remain consistent in demonstrating God's attributes because if sin is necessary to make God whole, then it had to co-exist with Him from all eternity in order to claim that God has ALWAYS been whole.

    1. God has been self-existent and self-sufficient throughout eternity
    2. God said "I AM THAT I AM" and that is all that is necessary for God to prove that He is.
    3. God has never been unsatisfied or un-content in eternity, has never been evil or sinful. There has never been a time when God was not perfect, and perfectly good.
    4. God has been whole throughout eternity. Nothing has ever been necessary to God beyond His own fact of existence for Him to exist as God. God is necessary for creation, creation is not necessary for God.
    5. Therefore sin is not and has never been necessary
     
    #4 DrJamesAch, Jul 9, 2013
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  5. Inspector Javert

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    It is a tricky question and the verbiage used must be very precise:

    Sin isn't necessary to God of course:
    But at the same time, he could not create the world as he chose to with creatures possesed of volitional freedom and simultaneously avoid sin.

    God CAN create a world without sin, no doubt:
    But he can't create creatures with volitional freedom of choice and also prevent the possibility of sin.

    However, sin does NOT serve a greater purpose either.

    The Calvinist explains that although sin is bad and evil and that God hates it, than God MUST have a purpose for sin in serving a perfect end that he decrees. A Calvinist perspective assumes that God can essentially create creatures with a "will" as they explain it, but that also he can deterministically decree every action that individual takes. Thus, he must have "determined" sin in some way. Thus, the Calvinist states that sin serves a higher ultimate purpose.

    I do not agree. Sin is gratuitous in it's nature. I do not believe sin serves a "higher purpose" in any way.

    Sin is not necessary (strictly speaking) but, it is un-avoidable given God's decision to create a being with freedom of will.
     
  6. salzer mtn

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    Good post, I agree
     
  7. jbh28

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    These two things are not mutually exclusive.

    Yes, we are in agreement that there was a purpose for allowing man to disobey God.
    But when we get to heaven..... Again, you argument fails here. If God couldn't prevent sin earlier, what changed with God to give him the power over sin when we are all in heaven?
    Where do you get this from? Again, you are limiting the power of God to say he couldn't' have prevented sin.

    We are much different from God. God is sovereign and omnipotent, we are not.
    But He will create a world without sin in the future. so you are wrong.

    And God could have done that before. He didn't for a purpose, but He could have done that. Remember, I'm not arguing that allowing man to disobey wasn't necessary to serve a greater purpose, but arguing against the idea that God was helpless when it comes to sin.

    Sin could have been prevented by God. to say anything different to make God less powerful than sin. God has a purpose in allowing man to sin, but God wasn't powerless over sin. He allows man to sin. He will defeat sin.

    That's the difference between you and me. I believe, as the Bible teaches, that God is sovereign and omnipotent. You deny these truths.
     
    #7 jbh28, Jul 9, 2013
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  8. jbh28

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    I should have in the 2nd one said "allowing man to sin"
     
  9. Deacon

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    Sin wasn't necessary, it serves to purpose in God's plan

    God is complete in himself, without need or necessity of any other.

    In his creation, God permitted transgression: sin was introduced by the free choice of those he created.

    God, by his glorious grace provides a way of deliverance to those who choose to believe.

    By revealing himself, his glorious attributes and his work of salvation, God is highly exulted.

    Rob
     
  10. Winman

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    Well, that's your opinion. Jesus said sin "must needs be", and I am not going to tell him he is wrong like some have done here.

    Now it is you reading into scripture, Jesus didn't say this, he simply said offences (sin) "must needs be". I would not go beyond that.

    We know there will be no sin in heaven, because scripture says so;

    Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    I have already explained why there will be no sin in heaven. The moment we receive Jesus our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit to be one new spirit. We are now a new creation, born again. We now share the divine nature. At the resurrection we receive an incorruptible body that will not pull or tug us toward sin. Thus, no sin in heaven.

    God has some limits, God cannot lie, God cannot steal, etc...

    God by his loving nature cannot make us robots that have no choice, thus sin is enabled and made possible. God cannot prevent our first sin unless he not create us at all, or he kills us before we can sin. That would prevent God from having fellowship with us, which he obviously desires. Now, after we sin, then God can justly destroy us, or cast us in prison (hell) to prevent us from defiling his society (heaven).

    Most of our laws are based on biblical principles. We allow men as much freedom as possible until they abuse that freedom and hurt others. Then we can justly take that freedom away.
    Not really, those who reject God shall be unholy and filthy still. Sin will exist forever, though it will be cast in the lake of fire. Those who choose Christ in this life receive the Holy Spirit now, and will receive an incorruptible body in heaven, and thus will never sin again.

    I do not believe God EVER desired sin. We read that God destroyed the first world because he was grieved at sin. God did know that man would sin, and so prepared that his Son Jesus would save men who believe.

    If there is a purpose for sin, that would mean God was dependent on sin. I do not believe that, I simply believe that God must give any created beings in his image free will that necessarily enabled sin to occur. He could not do otherwise. God is love, he CANNOT make robots, just as he cannot lie or steal.

    God can certainly keep sin out of heaven and that is exactly what he is going to do. But those who are unholy and filthy will be unholy and filthy still;

    Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    There will be sin and sinners forever, but they will be WITHOUT, they will be kept out of heaven. Notice the word "be"... we will all exist FOREVER.
    No, you believe a man-made doctrine that absolutely perverts the Word of God.
     
    #10 Winman, Jul 9, 2013
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  11. jbh28

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    And that has nothing to do with our conversation. The point is that God can have a world with no sin. therefore you are wrong.

    Because God is good. God is not limited by something outside of himself. If God could not defeat sin, then something(sin) would be greater than God.

    But you will contradict yourself in just a bit when you say there will be no sin in heaven because God will give us a nature where we will not want to sin.

    So therefore, He will "create a world without sin in the future." There will be a place where people will not sin, the new world.
    Of course not!
    Agree

    So now you say that there is no purpose for sin? but I though you said, "Jesus said sin is necessary," He can have people with a nature that would not want to sin, just as he will in heaven.
    So then God has the power over sin and didn't have to let sin happen to begin with.
     
  12. Winman

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    If God wanted to spend eternity alone, then yes, he could have a world without sin. But if God wants to fellowship with creatures made in his image, then he cannot prevent sin, he MUST give them free will, which enables and makes sin necessary.

    And it is because God is good that he MUST allow us free will which enables the possibility of sin. God cannot make us slaves or robots, that would be immoral. If you kidnapped a girl off the streets and held her captive as your wife, that would be evil and immoral. God cannot do evil things like this.

    You Calvinists fixate on God's power and forget his love and holiness. God cannot use his power to violate his love and holiness.
    God can give us this sinless nature because that is what we want when we come to Jesus. When I realized I was a lost sinner condemned to hell, I did not want or desire sin any longer. God has given me a new heart that I desired. He did not force or impose it on me as your false doctrine teaches.


    No, heaven already exists and so does the lake of fire. He will allow those who chose Jesus into heaven, those who reject Jesus shall be kept without, but they will exist forever. They will "BE" (existence) unjust "STILL" (forever).

    No, you believe sin serves a purpose, which would make God dependent on sin. You believe God "needs" sin, I do not. I believe God cannot prevent sin, HUGE difference.

    How long does it take you to grasp something? God doesn't desire sin, but he cannot make creatures in his image (us) without free will because that would be immoral. Therefore the possibility of sin cannot be avoided, even by God.
    I believe what Jesus said, that offences (sin) "must needs be".

    Again, you Calvinists fixate on God's power to the exclusion of all his other attributes. God was around for trillions of years before there was a creation to be sovereign over, but he was in a loving relationship with his Son and the Holy Spirit for eternity. LOVE CAME FIRST.
     
    #12 Winman, Jul 9, 2013
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  13. percho

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    My vote. Sin was necessary to serve a greater purpose, God could have prevented it

    I believe before God said, "Let there be light," death was already present on the earth. "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep." I believe Satan was present and had brought death and darkness upon the earth.

    God was going to deal with Satan and death. And was going to so deal by creating a man in his image that upon influence from Satan would bring death to himself. God then through a virgin woman, the woman taken from the man created in his image would bring forth his Son as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, subject to the death the first Adam brought on man. That Son would die redeeming man and be given life again by his Father thus destroying Satan and death.

    Someone show me from scripture where this is incorrect.
     
  14. jbh28

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    No. God will make a world where people will freely love him and yet not sin, the new world. You are wrong yet again.
    If you really think this, you have serious reading issues. Calvinist speak much of God's love and holiness.

    Straw man, as usual from you. But as you said, God could have given us a nature that would not sin, you are wrong once again.

    Sorry. First, something having a purpose doesn't mean that God is dependent on it. God is not dependent on anything. I've never said that God was dependent on anything. I believe that God allowing sin serves a purpose. You believe God cannot prevent sin, making him weak and under the power of sin. So you misquote me and make God under the power of sin. Of course you contradict yourself because it was YOU that said, that sin was necessary. I said God allowing sin served a purpose.

    Jesus didn't sin. We will not sin in heaven. You shouldn't mock me. It's only making you look more foolish. you keep contradicting yourself over and over again(which I pointed out already).

    Oh, so you believe sin is now necessary, thus according to you "make God dependent on sin." You are really having trouble.

    this is nothing short of a lie.
    Of course.

    1. God is good
    2. God is great
    3. Evil exist

    All tough by the Bible, winman rejects number 2, thus rejecting the Bible. winman, you are so focused on proving me wrong, that your posts are getting worse and worse. You keep contradicting yourself. you should take a break.

    I'm only going to respond to you here on points that you make that are 1) logical 2) not just repeating already refuted points.
     
  15. percho

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    Q. 1. Who made you?
    A. God.

    Q. 2. What else did God make?
    A. God made all things.

    Q. 3. Why did God make you and all things ?
    A. For his own glory.

    First three questions and answers from CATECHISM FOR YOUNG CHILDREN

    My old Presbyterian background coming out in me, I guess.

    Let's assume these are correct.


    What could give God more glory than redeeming unto Himself that which Satan tried to destroy?
     
  16. Winman

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    Those in heaven are those who have chosen Jesus and against sin in this life. They receive the Holy Spirit now, and an incorruptible body at the resurrection and will never sin again.

    Right, you believe God makes it rain on them for 70 years, then he fries them in hell for eternity. Nice.

    "Given" yes, forced or imposed upon us NO. You are married, did your wife willingly marry you, or did you hit her over the head with a club and drag her into your cave?

    I disagree, you make God to "need" sin. I have seen certain Calvinists (Luke in particular) who openly say God "needs" sin to show his mercy.

    Who said Jesus sinned? I said we will not sin in heaven. I did not mock you. I haven't contradicted myself yet.

    Not necessary in that God "needs" sin, but necessary in that God could not make free will creatures and "prevent" sin. HUGE difference you seem unable to grasp.

    Not sure what you are trying to say here.

    I do not reject #2, I simply do not believe God can use his power to violate his other attributes like love or holiness. God cannot force or impose himself on anyone because that is immoral. You cannot grab a woman off the streets, it is the same concept. Are you strong enough to do it? I am sure you are, but you do not do it because you know it would be evil.

    You guys are too hung up on God's power, God's power is just ONE of his many attributes. God cannot use his power to do evil.
     
  17. percho

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    I believe we agree.

    Do you think God needs for us to do anything to being about his purpose?

    I do not.

    Our part: The end of the whole matter let us hear: -- `Fear God, and keep His commands, for this [is] the whole of man. Ecc 12:13
     
  18. jbh28

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    I agree with you
     
  19. jbh28

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    And God could have given us an incorruptible body to begin with if He wanted to. We would freely obey him(just like we will in heave) we would freely love him(just like we will in heaven).



    Eveyone in hell will be there because they deserve to be there. Your point is moot, and off topic.


    God needs nothing.

    No one. sorry to go over your head.
    I've pointed it out twice.


    I was only going on what your said.

    I noticed... :)

    I do not reject #2, I simply do not believe God can use his power to violate his other attributes like love or holiness. God cannot force or impose himself on anyone because that is immoral. You cannot grab a woman off the streets, it is the same concept. Are you strong enough to do it? I am sure you are, but you do not do it because you know it would be evil. [/quote]You do reject number 2. You said God couldn't have avoided sin. That means that God is not all powerful.
    Of course not, why on earth would you even write this? No one has suggested it.
     
    #19 jbh28, Jul 9, 2013
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  20. Winman

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    No, God had to give us a choice, he could not impose even a holy nature on us. This is why sin cannot be prevented.

    Now, once we make the choice to be saved by Jesus and baptized into his Spirit, it is not wrong for God to give us his holy nature and the incorruptible body.

    If Calvinism is true, then the only persons who willingly sinned were Adam and Eve. Everyone else was forced and compelled to sin by the sin nature imposed upon them at birth. They are no different from a baby born addicted to heroin because his mother chose to break the law and use heroin. If this is true, we are not criminals, but victims of our parent's sin. We do not deserve judgment, but compassion and mercy.

    God is certainly self sufficient, but the scriptures say God is love, and I believe that love needs expression. God certainly has chosen to create and have fellowship with man.

    As if. :laugh:

    You are not writing well lately, is there a reason?

    The reason I am having trouble understanding you is that your writing is a little discombobulated.

    I didn't say God couldn't avoid sin, Jesus did. Jesus said that "it must needs be that offences come" . Now that is simple enough, he is saying that sin is necessary. The debate is over WHY sin is necessary, not that it is necessary, that is a given.
     
    #20 Winman, Jul 9, 2013
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