Need for Authority

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. Eladar

    Eladar
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    This is a continuation of the discussion about God not giving us authority to do certain things. (ie instrumental music while praising God)

    Frank,

    You were asking about Amos 6:5. Try going back to Amos 5 and see if God would normally take joy in listening to instrumental music (harp in verse 23).

    You are arguing out of silence. The Bible is silent on the issue. Therefore according to the traditional CoC position, you should be silent on this issue too.

    Once again I ask that you provide the verse that says anyone who uses instrumental music during worship will not be found righteous on the day of the Lord.

    Oh really? Would you please state the verse that says you should not do something (ie use instrumental music in the service) because you were not given that authority.
    There were specific rules given about such matters. Where are those rules in the New Testament?

    As far as instrumental music being acceptable, please see the Amos 5 reference I made earlier, let alone 2 Chronicles 29:25.

    Once again I ask, where in the Bible does it say that instrumental music can't be used during the worship service?

    Last time I asked that question, you couldn't supply that quote. Is this still the case?
    Where in the Bible does it give you the authority to speak English during the worship service?

    2 Chronicles 29:25 states that God instructed musical instruments to be brought into the temple. Why would God do this if He was against them being used?


    Now you have one standard for one issue, but another standard on another. Nice consistancy. [​IMG]
    I'd say any song that was written after the first century would be considered a 'new' song.
     
  2. Frank

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    Tuor:
    The Bible specifically states in every reference in the new testament to SING. Just as Nadab and Abihu were given a specific command as to the use of fire so are we when we are commanded to sing. I would ask you to provide one scripture that teaches us to PLAY. You not only want do it,YOU CANNOT DO IT. Your whole argument is one of silence. God does not authorize by silence. Hebrews 7:14;8:4.

    One can go to the Bible and see the worship under the Mosaical economy. It does not in any passage mention any form of instrumental music in the House of God. If this is an argument from silence, It proves my point. God did not allow mechanical instrument in the tabernacle as there are no verses that declare, imply, or provide and approved example of it. It is YOUR ASSUMPTION THAT IT WAS DONE FROM II CHR. 29:25. In fact, if you would look in Exodus 35-38. The things in the tabernacle are described. Notice there is no mention of any mechanical instrument of music amongst them. To the rational mind if God wanted one to be played here, he would have obviously copmmanded it as he did the rest of the things. Furthermore, I find no mention of mechanical instruments in the Holiest of Holies. If they were used, it would be in Leviticus 16. Again, total silence. If in fact as you claim, these instruments were used where does one find them beign used in the worship to God. It was not in the Tabernacle. If it was not in the Holiest of Holies. If they were used IN TEMPLE WORSHIP where does the Bible so declare,imply or provide an example. It was an invention of David. Amos 6:5.

    There is no doubt the Israelites used instruments to celebrate and praise God. The question is not who authorized it in the Old Testament, but Who did so in the New Testament? Why does one not find it being practiced under the law of Moses BEFORE DAVID? Why does one not find it being practiced by the first century church?
    My argument is hardly from silence. Every scripture in the New Testament of Christ commands US TO SING. Just as playing is absent from the tabernacle, holiest of holies, it also absent in the new testament worship. God has commanded singing. The command is a specific command. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Col. 3:16.

    [ August 16, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
     
  3. Eladar

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    If God did not want to hear musical instruments, then why did God command them to be brought into the temple?

    Going back to Amos, if you'll go back one chapter you will find this:

    Amos 5:21-24

    "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
    I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
    I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs!
    I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!



    It seems to me that God is saying that normally He would accept the playing of harps just as he accepts the noise of songs. Perhaps there isn't as much silence on this issue as you thought there was. ;)
    My assumption? :confused:

    He stationed the Levites in the temple of the LORD with cymbals, harps and lyres in the way prescribed by David and Gad the king's seer and Nathan the prophet; this was commanded by the LORD through his prophets.


    I don't see how you can sit there and call this clearly stated fact an assumption.

    One other question, if God intended this to be such a major issue as CoC like to make it, then why didn't God just come out and say, "No instrumental music"?

    If you understood what Jesus meant when he said that we are to live by two commandments, you'd understand just how ridiculous this issue really is.
     
  4. DHK

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    I would like you to provide Scripture where God specifically authorizes you to meet in church buildings such as you meet in. Christians did no such thing until 250 A.D. Who gives you such authority? Certainly not the New Testament. "God does not authorize by silence." So, where does your authority come from?
    DHK
     
  5. Frank

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    DHK:
    I have already provided the evidence for lawful places to assemble. I do not use the term church building as it is a false description. That is what you call them.

    Furthermore, IMPLICATION and APPROVED EXAMPLE from scripture teaches us we can meet any where that is lawful. I Cor. 6:12. These places include: Jails, Acts 16:24,25, Rivers, Acts 16:12-14, Temple, Solomon's porch, Acts 5:12, Homes Romans 16:3-5. This is what the Bible has approved by example and implication.

    It would be up to you to prove this not to be the case. You have tried once and failed miserably. Why torture yourself again?
     
  6. Frank

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    Tuor:
    I asked for the approval of Christ for playing instruments in the New Testament Worship. We are under the authority of Christ, not Moses. Mat. 28:18-20. Christ is not entered into by things of the old law. Hebrews 9:21-25;10:1-49:1-14. Those things have been replaced by the new way. Hebs.8:13;9:15-17. It is apparent you cannot provide scripture for pianos in the new testament worship.

    The temple had courtyards. Yet, they were still considered a part of the temple. I do not doubt music was played outside the worship of the temple. However, it is appatrent from Amos 6:5 God was not pleased with the way David was doing it. It is just as obvious to me he was playing unlawfully in the temple. It was the invention of David. This would be the rational conclusion based on the evidence of the Mosaical system.

    The mechanical instrument is not found in the things of the tabernacle. Exodus 34,35. In fact, in Exodus 24-26 the mention of them being used by the Levites in the courtyard are absent. In Levticus 16, their is no mention of them in the Holiest of Holies.

    Having said all that, it has nothing to do with NEW TESTAMENT WORSHIP UNDER THE GOSPEL SYSTEM OF FAITH. Romans 1:16,17;10:17;14:29.

    Tuor, in fact, DENOMINATIONAL theologians adamantly condemn the use of mechanical instruments in worship. Please note the following:

    CLARKE "I am an old man, and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God, and have reason to believe that they are productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instrumental music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music, and I here register my protest against all such corruption of the worship of the author of Christianity.

    'I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.' I say the same." (Adam Clark, Methodist)

    CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33
    AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)
    ROBERTSON "The word (psalleto) originally meant to play on a stringed instrument (Sir. 9:4), but it comes to be used also for singing with the voice and heart (Eph. 5:19; 1 Cor. 14:15), making melody with the heart also to the Lord" (A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, Baptist Studies in the Nestle James, comment on James 5:13)

    We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)
    BARNES "Psallo … is used, in the New Testament, only in Rom. 15:9 and 1 Cor. 14:15, where it is translated sing; in James 5:13, where it is rendered sing psalms, and in the place before us. The idea here is that of singing in the heart, or praising God from the heart" (Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian, Notes on The Testament, comment on Eph. 5:19).
    KNOX "a kist (chest) of whistles." (John Knox, Presbyterian, in reference to the organ)
    WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685) LUTHER "The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762)

    Your argument is a hopeless appeal to what is not written in the new testament and, at best, the obsolete law of Moses which has NO AUTHORITY FOR TEACHING AND PRACTICE OF NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANITY Mat. 28:18-20. However, like Nadab and Abihu, you can have it your way. Leviticus. 10:1,2.
     
  7. Eladar

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    You asked for aproval from Christ and I asked for a restriction by Christ. Hmm, it looks like there isn't one either way. I guess Jesus didn't believe this was such an important issue. We don't even have a mention of this anywhere in the New Testament.

    As far as your Amos 6 quote goes, you are taking this and twisting it to fit your views. It speaks of nothing in the context for which you are applying it. The real application is back in Amos 5, but you don't want to admit it.

    If your views represent the traditional CoC position, and I'm afraid it does, I can see why so many people believe CoC to be such a cold hearted legalistic group. I never had this discussion while attending CoC for about the last 10 years because I figured this isn't an issue to be devisive over.

    To tell you the truth, you are the first person I've run across who didn't agree with me. For 4 years I was surrounded by members of the CoC while I attended ACU and never have I run across the likes of you.

    Here is what Jesus said about what really matters:


    Matthew 15:1-20


    Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
    " 'These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "
    Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
    Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"
    He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
    Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
    "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "



    I know this is out of the NIV and you probably only read the KJV, but the KJV gets the same message across:

    Washing your hands (or playing musical instruments) doesn't matter. It never has mattered. See Amos 5. What is in our heart is what matters.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK
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    If you come up with a better term than "church building" we can use it, but the fact remains that the early believers did not have a building to regularly meet in for 250 years after the death of Christ. They didn't have any such buildings other than the ones you mentioned(homes, jails, etc.)--which you obviously do not confine yourself to.
    Now you must be careful with this argument Frank.
    IMPLICATION and APPROVED EXAMPLE from Scripture teaches us we can use any musical instrument that is lawful to use. All musical instruments are lawful as long as they are used in a way that glorifies God. Musical instruments are even used in heaven. There is a stronger case in the Bible for the use of musical instruments than there is for the use of church buildings.

    Let's look at your infamous lists of Scripture, and see what you have.

    1Cor.6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    --"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient." Frank, church buildings are not expedient. They are not necessary. They are within the law to use, but they are not necessary; they are not expedient, or to use you own words "an expedient." It is not necessary to have a church building. How on earth do you use this verse to defend your stance?? It disproves the very thing that you are trying to defend.

    Acts 16:24,25
    24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.
    25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
    --Great verses Frank. Do you meet in a jail? If the answer is no, these verses also give no support to your position.

    Acts 16:12-14
    12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
    13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
    14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    --Here they met at a riverside. Do you meet at a riverside. out in the open; no building at all? This gives no support to your position either.

    Acts 16:3-5
    3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
    --What is your point here Frank. Timothy was circumcised. Is your point that all should be circumcised in order to be saved??
    Verse five speaks of the churches (assemblies) being established). It doesn't speak of buildings. The churches can be established in open places, in tents, in homes, in the type of jail that Paul was imprisoned in when he was in Rome. It doesn't speak of church buildings Frank. These verses do nothing to support your position. You argue out of silence.

    Acts 5:12
    12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
    --Do you meet on Solomon's Porch or in the Temple for that matter? This verse does nothing to support your case. Where in the Bible do you derive your authority to meet in church buildings. You have none. Millions of believers all over this world meet in homes, open places, jails, and other such places. They don't have church buildings like you do in America. You believe it is a necessity, "an expedient," but it isn't, and there is no directive or authority for one to meet in a church building. Believers never did for 250 years after the death of Christ.

    As you can see I have not failed. What you have failed to deal with is inconsistency. There is more "authority" or evidence in the Bible for the "lawful" use of musical instruments in the assembly than there is to meet in a church building. Yet you will meet in a church building (unscriptural), and will refuse to allow the use of musical instruments (Scriptural). A little hypocrital don't you think??
    DHK
     
  9. Frank

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    Tuor:
    The restriction, as you call it, is found in the direct command to sing. The scriptures themselves define what singing is to be. Again, Christ commanded specifically words to be used to communicate a spiritual message of understanding to one another. Last time I checked personal pronouns were people. The very phrase SPEAKING TO YOURSLEVES REQUIRES SPECIFICALLY THE RECIPROCAL ACTION OF COMMUNICATION OF WORDS. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19, Acts 16:24,25, Hebrews 2:12, I Cor. 14:15, James 5:13, Romans 15:9, Mat. 26:30.

    Your argument is without scriptural merit. The original language, the examples in the New Testament, and the specific command, teaches people to use words in praising God, teaches us to admonish one another, from our minds through language. Col. 3;16, Eph.5:19, I Cor. 14:15.

    Now, I would like for you to as per the scriptures tell me the following:
    1. How and when a piano became a personal pronoun?
    I would like to see that grammar book.
    2. How and when did pianos learn to speak. I have heard pianos play all my life. However, I have never heard one speak to me.
    3. When have they ever uttered one single word of understanding about anything spiritual. I Cor. 14:15.

    4. When did pianos receive brain transplants? Scientist tell me they do not have a mind in which words are to dwell in richly with all wisdom. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19.

    5. When did pianos become our brethren. Hebrews 2:12?

    Again, I asked for what Christ demands. The authority to teach or practice mechanical instruments. It is obvious you cannot do it. Therefore, why bother trying to defend the practice as if it were acceptable. Why? because of human reasoning alone!

    This is exactly why most scholars will not take your position and attempt to defend it in a public debate. They know as well as they know their name it would be a personal exercise in subjectivity which is useless in a scholarly debate.

    I would have more respect for people who use mechanical instruments if they would just admit they use them because they like the way it sounds, or entertains them, or makes them feel emotionally.

    By the way, I hope you will scripturally address my questions.

    However, it is clear to the rational mind they are not to be used in worship to God in the Christian system of faith.
     
  10. Eladar

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    I believe I answered those questions with what Jesus said about washing hands. [​IMG]
     
  11. Frank

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    Tuor:
    Mat. 15 has absolutely nothing to do with the command to sing. Mat. 15 speaks to the doctrines of pharisees. SINGING IS A COMMAND OF GOD.
    Furthermore, one must be legal to please God. This statement represents rebellion against God. If the heart is all that matters,Jesus is wrong In Mat. 7:21- 29. The Bible says,Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    28  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
    29  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


    I John 3:4 defines sin as the transgression of Law. In short,if one does something ILLEGAL he sins, Therefore, the one who obeys law is not sinning and is " legal."

    You claim you addressed the scriptures in the new testament about singing is simply false. There is no exegesis by you of those posted. You did not answer the five questions or points made in my last post. If I held your position, I would ignore them, too. Instead, you attempt to link the contexts of scriptures that are different in likeness to avoid your false position.

    It matters not to me which individuals you have discussed this with. They cannnot answer for their position either. In fact, you are more than welcome to inform them of this issue, and if they wish, they may contact me to discuss it. It does not matter if they attended ACU, Freed, Lipscomb or SCU. All of you are in the same boat with no paddle. (I mean scripture.)

    One thing you have learned well, is how to play religious dodgeball. You are well skilled in this arena.
     
  12. Frank

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    Dhk:
    You once again do not understand what the word expedient means. Expedients must carry out a lawful command. The New Tetament of Christ commands one to SING. Therefore, whatever is used it must carry out singing. The instrument does not carry out any function of singing as defined by the scriptures. The instrument cannot teach admonish with words. The instrument cannot have words dwell in it richly with all wisdom. It cannot aid the understanding of langauge as an instrument does not communicate in this medium. It makes sounds or noise. Therefore, by definiton of the context and the verbal actions contained therein instruments are unlawful to use.

    Your second failure is that the expedient must not violate the expressed will of God. In the context of I Cor. 6:12 the all things that are lawful are the things which God approves. Please note: verse 13 and the reference to meats. Paul could eat any type meat with the approval of God. Yet, he would not allow his choice of expediency to rule over him. In short, he could eat all meats or exclude them as no specific meat type is prohibited. See also. Romans 14:20- 23, I Tim. 4:3. Moreover, he would not use his use of expediency to cause a weak brother to fall. SEE Romans 14: 1-4, 21. Christian liberty or expedience must not rule over us . In other words, It must not injure or harm our brother who does not understand it. In other words, we could meet at various locations to worship God. We do not have to use as you say a " church building."

    Now, as for the building issue. You make a false assumption when you claim I believe buildings are essentials. This falsehood is perpetuated out of your ignorance of what constiutes an expedient. I have met in a tent, under a tree, in the open air, and in a home. However, I do so not out of necessity, but because they are expedient as per the context of I Cor.6 and related passages where Christians are worshipping God. Your argument fails miserably. It is also one of the weakest strawman arguments I have ever heard. If I thought you were kidding I would laugh, but you are actually serious!!! This is sad.

    I assemble at various locations. A building is not saved. Therefore, I do not met at a church building. I assemble to worship God at any and all authorized locations where two or three are gathered in his name. I make no distinction on the meeting place as it being essential as the new testament does not make this distinction. For where two or three are gathered in his name there he is in the midst of them.

    It maybe the jail, a home, open air, a tent,under a tree or by a body of water. For that matter, One does not need any utitlity ( water fountain, lights, toilet, songbooks, pews, microphones etc.) to worhsip God. These things are expedients just as is the meeting place.

    I am very careful about what the word of God teaches and what I practice. You would do well to heed your own advice.
     
  13. Eladar

    Eladar
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    So was not eating certain foods.

    This is both true and false. When it comes to important matters such as sexual immorality this is true, but when it comes to unimportant matters this is false.

    Romans 14

    You represent those who believe in only eating vegetables while I represent those who believe that eating meat is OK.

    No, I say that your interpretation of the scripture is simply false. There is a big difference. By no means does the scripture you use to build your case clearly state what you believe it states.

    So get off your high horse and open your eyes.

    Translation: You don't agree with my interpretation of scripture.

    That is because it is so far out in left field that any mainstream orthodox Christian rejects your interpretation as hog wash.

    No, if you didn't belong to the Church of Christ and didn't believe that your identity was at stake, you'd ignore the ridiculous back flips too.
    And you have learned well the skill of espousing your own views on questionable matters as if they were fact.
     
  14. Frank

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    Tuor:
    I have quoted or posted ALL THE EVIDENCE for music in worship. Everyone of them teaches us to SING. The Bible is it's own best interpreter.

    It is not my opinion that all the scriptures teach us to sing. It is the truth. John 17:17.
    It is also truth that the new testament does not authorize the use of mechanical instruments in worship. Jesus taught and commanded all things. Mat, 28;18-20. He did not teach us to use mechanical instruments in worship. This is not opinion. It is truth. This is the TOTALITY OF THE EVIDENCE FOR MUSIC IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. Mat. 26:30, Acts 16:24,25, Romans 15:9, Col. 3;16, Eph. 5:19, I Cor. 14:15 James 5:13, Hebrews 2;12. it is not my opinion that the totality of the harmonious evidence teaches Christians to sing. It is truth.

    It is not my opinion that not one scripture in the new testament teaches us to play any instrument. It is truth.

    It is also truth that faith is built upon the expressed will of God, not the absence thereof. Romans 10:17. It also true that whatever is not of faith is SIN. Romans 14:23. It is also true that doing things without the divine written sanction of God is sin. I John 3:4, I Cor. 4:6. It is also true that there is not a sin unto death. I John 5:17.

    If I am wrong, just provide the scriptures that teach us to play in the worship of God as per the New Testament of Jesus Christ. If I am wrong, just teach me from the scriptures how a piano uses words to communicate to me.

    Please, just take the totality of the evidence that teaches us to play. If you do, I will be the first person to roll it in on Sunday. If playing is right, then all should be doing it. If it is wrong, it should not be done by anyone.

    I am hoping you will address the content of the scriptures and the meaning of the words there in to prove your position. However, so far, your defense is BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000, VERSE 000.

    By the way, I am honored that God allows me to defend the truth against error. Jude 3.I make no apology for defending the authority of the head of the church of Christ... JESUS. Col. 1:18. The one who purchased the church with his own blood. Acts 20:28. It is a blessing to worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24.

    No matter how you attempt to justify the unscriptural practice of playing, the static unchanging standard of truth will always teach us to SING. Mat. 26:30, Acts 16:24,25, Romans 15:9, I Cor. 14:15, James 5:13, Hebrews 2:12, Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19. That is not nearly it, that is it!
     
  15. Eladar

    Eladar
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    Matthew 26:26-30

    While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

    Acts 16:22-25

    The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten. After they had been severely flogged, they were thrown into prison, and the jailer was commanded to guard them carefully. Upon receiving such orders, he put them in the inner cell and fastened their feet in the stocks. About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them.

    Romans 15:7-13

    Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
    "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
    I will sing hymns to your name."
    Again, it says,
    "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
    And again,
    "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
    and sing praises to him, all you peoples." And again, Isaiah says,
    "The Root of Jesse will spring up,
    one who will arise to rule over the nations;
    the Gentiles will hope in him."
    May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.


    1 Corinthians 14:13-17

    For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.


    James 5:13-16

    Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

    Hebrews 2:10-13

    In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says,
    "I will declare your name to my brothers;
    in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises." And again,
    "I will put my trust in him." And again he says,
    "Here am I, and the children God has given me."


    Colossians 3:15-17

    Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

    Ephesians 5:15-21

    Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.



    Let those who have eyes see.
     
  16. Eladar

    Eladar
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    Frank,

    Would you please show me where any of those scriptures is dealing with the worship service?
     
  17. Frank

    Frank
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    Tuor:
    Hebrews 2:12 specifically states the singing would be done in the midst of the brethren. Jesus said in Mat. 18:20 where two or three are garthered together in my name their I am in the midst of them. It would be most difficult to admonish one another unless you are assembled. Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16. I would like to see that one.

    While the assembly is in consideration, it would also apply to the praise of God in other places. The text does not exclude any assembly but implies that any praise in song be done by singing.In each of the eight verse that pertain to this subject a plural number assembled are in view.


    We have a piano in our home. My wife plays it on occasion. However, we never sing praises to God while it is being played.

    The Christians in the first century continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine, fellowship, in the breaking of bread and prayers, Acts 2:42. The totality of the evidence teaches they sang in the midst of their brethren. Jesus and his disciples set the example when they sang a hymn after the Lord's Supper and went out into the Mount of Olives. Mat. 26:22-30. In fact, it is most likely Jesus and his disciples were singing the 118th Psalm. This also follows the divine sanction to sing psalms amd spiritual songs making melody or grace in your heart to the Lord.

    Christians today assemble on the first day of the week for this same purpose. I Cor. 11:24-29; 16:1,2. We follow the divine pattern set long before our adoption into the body of Christ.

    Since you asked the question, where does the scriptures say this. I would like to know where the scriptures say for us to play?

    I await your reply.
     
  18. Eladar

    Eladar
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    Did the first century Christians only get together a couple of hours every week or were they a community?

    Is a worship service defined as two or more Christians in the same location?
    Are you taling about officially assembled? Or are you talking about being around each other?
    So you are assembled but you aren't sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God?

    It appears to me as if you are not following God's command given to us in Colossians 3:15-17.

    My reply is that your premise is incorrect. The premise that everything you do/use must be a direct command found in the Bible is faulty. The practice of using loud speakers in the Church of Christ demonstrates that CoC recognizes this fact. They just pick and choose which mechanical devices are and aren't acceptable.
     
  19. Frank

    Frank
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    Tuor:
    Once again you have defended your postion with BOOK 000, Chapter 000, Verse 000. This is typical of apostate teachings.

    Your accusation about loud speakers shows you are ignorant of expediency in matters of faith. Expedients are things or ways a lawful command is practiced. I Cor. 6:12. Moreover, the thing or way used does not violate the expressed will of God.

    Paul uses meats to demonstrate this principle. I Cor. 6:13. He says it is expedient for him to eat any meat. However, he would not let expediency rule over him or, better yet, become the law.

    Paul in Romans 14:21- 15:1 states by inspiration, 20  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
    21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
    22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
    23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

    Romans 15:1  ¶We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

    It is fine to eat any meat whether it be pork or beef, or chicken. These things are all expedient or lawful. However, one must not destroy the weak brother with the use of them. Romans 14:21; 15:1. This is the case eventhough God has made no prohibition about meats for us. The Bible say in I Tim. 4:3, Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    Paul refused to allow his expedience, that which is lawful, to injure the weak brothers faith about forbidden meats. This obviously is a a refernce to past times when Jews were forbidden to eat certain animals.

    In fact, God used this example to teach Peter that the Gentiles were not unclean and subject to salvation with the Jews. Acts 10:9- 17,9  ¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
    10  And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
    11  And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
    12  Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
    13  And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
    14  But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
    15  And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
    16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
    17  Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

    ACTS 10:28 says,  And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    The matter of meats is one of expedience. One may eat all types. This is the case because GOD has made them both lawful. Ones choice in the matter is expedience. However, please note that the expedient is lawful. It does not violate the expressed will of God.

    Now, The expressed will of God says to sing. It is the only lawful form of verbal praise of music provided by the expressed will of God. A loud speaker does not violate the commad to sing. Rather, it is used as a thing to carry out the expressed will of God. The same could be said for microphones. These things do not in and of themselves violate the will of God to sing.

    THEY DO NOT CHANGE THE ACT OR PRACTICE OF THE COMMAND. RATHER, THEY AID THE LAWFUL EXERCISE OF THE DIVINE DIRECTIVE. This is how EXPEDIENTS work!!! Water fountains, toilets, carpets, buildings are expedients to carry out the lawful command to assemble. They in no way change the command or act of assembling.

    Your accusation is simply without merit.

    By the way, I am still waiting on the scriptures for us to play in the Christian system of faith. I have a real good hunch one will be waiting tomorow, next year, and until the Lord returns for those. This is obvious as they do not exist.
     
  20. Dan Stiles

    Dan Stiles
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    Frank,
    Part of your last post included this:
    It seems to me that instruments (whatever they may be) are also merely expedients - no different in your logical argument (above) than a microphone. Let me show you; the italicized wordds are yours:

    A (piano) does not violate the commad to sing. Rather, it is used as a thing to carry out the expressed will of God. The same could be said for (organs or guitars or trumpets or saxaphones!). These things do not in and of themselves violate the will of God to sing. And why not, because they help hearts to sing, and more importantly, they help voices to sing praises to God.

    Of course your mind is made up and I'll not change it, but by your own arguments, I can now conclude that instruments are indeed allowed because they are:
    1. "EXPEDIENTS;" and...
    2. "THEY DO NOT CHANGE THE ACT OR PRACTICE OF THE COMMAND. RATHER, THEY AID THE LAWFUL EXERCISE OF THE DIVINE DIRECTIVE"

    Thanks Frank
     

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