Need Some Help Re: Campbellite Teaching

Pompous is not that you hold scholars in esteem, but that you assume that when someone makes a statement using a figure of speech that they are being arrogant. Apparently, you give yourself high marks in the area of discernment, but in this case you get an "F".. I think it best that we conclude our correspondence on this issue, because we have become this issue to one another rather than the subject of the thread. Have a great evening, maybe we will talk again when we both can stay on topic.

Bro Tony

 

You can take my post literally, I was not kidding. What I am referring to that you attributed to me is that those who hold an opposing view were going to hell. I never said that. That which I did say I meant and you can take that to the bank.

Bro Tony

 

I SAID IT!

Any one who believes that you need to be baptized in order to go to Heaven, is lost and on there way to Hell.
I know in this politicaly correct society and so many churches its not the correct thing to say. I don't care, there still is right and wrong. And your dead wrong.

Bob C

 

[surface]
In otherwords, if one disagrees with the Baptist interpretation of Scripture regarding baptism, despite the fact that such an interpretation is only about 500 years old, is going to hell. Heaven must have been a lonely place for 1500 years!

The unanimous consent of Christians up to the time of the radical Reformation was that the Biblical teaching was that of "baptismal regeneration", and that there was no conflict between this and salvation in Christ alone. I can offer several verses, but in predictable quasi-gnostic fashion, these verses will be explained away. (I should know--as a lifelong baptist I've used the same rationalizations in explaining these verses away myself, the same verses which were universally considered to be teaching the necessity of water baptism for salvation.)

(Now fire away)
[/submerging]

 

I got to tell you I have never read one writting from the church fathers on that clame that one had to be Baptized before you were totaly saved.
I know people twist Scripture to back that false teaching. I don't believe the Apostle Paul would have said I'm glade I didn't baptize any of you if baptism was part of salvation. So really what Paul is saying if you believe this false teaching. Is that he was glade he didn't lead any into salvation. Since if your not baptized your going to hell.
So to say this teaching is only 500 years old is false. Unless Paul was messed up Since he sure didn't teach baptism was needed for salvation.
I take it you now believe baptism is nessesary for salvation. Are maybe you also believe as is comman. Just believe as you wan't were all children of God.
gnostic fashion, I have no idea how my doctrine, and a far majority of true believers in this world doctrine, of salvation by faith alone lines up with gnostic. So thats so crazy I won't even bother commenting on that.
If your adding anything to the finished work of Christ at Calvery. What your saying is Christ didn't complete the task he came to earth for. Baptism added to salvation is just adding works.
If your adding any type of work to the cross then Christ shall profit you nothing. Gal 5:1-5.
Go to www.carm.org because this is such a fundamental doctrine of true Christianity it shouldent even need to be debated. Any one that has not put there trust in Jesus Christ and Him alone and is adding to the finished work of Calvery is lost and in danger of HELL. John the Baptist said "believe and repent" not believe repent and be baptized.

Bob C

 

In this I am in agreement with Bob C. That the early church fathers or the church practiced these things holds no weight with me. The Apostle Paul spoke in the 1st Century that everyone had already left him. Much of his writings were to correct improper practices that had already found their way into the early church.

It is also amazing to me that we are on a Baptist board and there are those defended baptismal regeneration and pedo baptism. Many of our fore-fathers died at the hand of "the church" because they refused to deny biblical truth for these false teachings.

Bro Tony

 

One of our former members visited a Church of Christ assembly and found this (posted quite some time ago in the OR forum):

The church is legalist, and though may preach what sounds like an evangelistic message, is actually trusting in works to save them.
DHK

 

It is important, of course, to bear in mind that the rules posted above are the rules of one single congregation, and that the rules for each congregation vary from congregation to congregation. Many of these rules, however, are common to the Church of Christ.

It is also important, of course, to also bear in mind that the rules posted above were not addressed to persons outside that particular congregation, but to persons inside that particular congregation, and that it can be expected that they will be interpreted accordingly. All that we on the BB have here is the letter of the law, and none of the spirit of the law. My personal assessment of these rules, based solely on the letter of the law, is that these rules place this particular congregation outside of the body of Christ. However, when these rules are assessed in the full picture, the assessment may be very different. I most certainly would not “judge” the members of this congregation without knowing them personally and having a very good idea what kind of a personal relationship they have with Christ.

And it is also important, of course, to bear in mind that the rules posted above are in no way a reflection of the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. The merit of this particular doctrine lies in the doctrine itself, and is in no way affected by other, non-related doctrines, good or bad, that a group may hold to.

 

Persecution of Christians, whether it be mild, as here on the BB, or very severe as alluded to above, is the consequence of gross ignorance, abysmal intolerance, hateful arrogance, sinful pride—all of which are the antithesis of Jesus and his teaching. It is one thing to express the opinion that a particular belief system is, in ones personal opinion, less than fully accurate, and quite another to say that a particular belief system in heretical and a lie from hell.

The doctrines of Mormons, J.W.’s, and others that are radically different from the teachings of the Bible as understood throughout the history of the Church are clearly heresies. However, the doctrines of other groups that are not radically different from the teachings of the Bible as understood throughout the history of the Church are NOT clearly heresies, and may very well be more correct than the doctrines that we personally believe in. This is all the more true when the doctrine in question was the unanimous, or nearly unanimous, teaching of the Church for 1500 years and is still the teaching of the very large majority of the Church. Yes, we as Baptists have the right to believe in doctrines that are somewhat recent and novel, but we do not have the right to condemn to hell those who choose to believe the historical doctrine based upon historical exegesis of the Bible.

 

Do you dispute that these questions of doctrine were important enough for those who came before us to give their lives for? If someone feels they are right with God because they have been sprinkled or dunked in a tank, or because a church council said so because they believed they have the authority to do so, is this not dangerous? Do you believe that baptism brings about salvation? If not, then you are in opposition to those group who teach such. To defend what one believes it the Scripture teachings concerning salvation is not a small thing. It is dangerous to teach someone that they are saved by____________ (fill in the blank with anything you want) other than faith in Jesus is heresy, whether you agree or others agree or not.

Bro Tony

 

Persecution of Christians, whether it be mild, as here on the BB, or very severe as alluded to above, is the consequence of gross ignorance, abysmal intolerance, hateful arrogance, sinful pride—all of which are the antithesis of Jesus and his teaching. It is one thing to express the opinion that a particular belief system is, in ones personal opinion, less than fully accurate, and quite another to say that a particular belief system in heretical and a lie from hell.

The doctrines of Mormons, J.W.’s, and others that are radically different from the teachings of the Bible as understood throughout the history of the Church are clearly heresies. However, the doctrines of other groups that are not radically different from the teachings of the Bible as understood throughout the history of the Church are NOT clearly heresies, and may very well be more correct than the doctrines that we personally believe in. This is all the more true when the doctrine in question was the unanimous, or nearly unanimous, teaching of the Church for 1500 years and is still the teaching of the very large majority of the Church. Yes, we as Baptists have the right to believe in doctrines that are somewhat recent and novel, but we do not have the right to condemn to hell those who choose to believe the historical doctrine based upon historical exegesis of the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]Yea, I have a right and the obligation as a Minister of the Gospel of Christ, as is any Christian does to condem and to preach the truth. If you are trusting in any thing other than the Death Burial and Resurection of Jesus Christ as a means to have your sines forgiven then you are damed to eternity in hell a place of ever lasting torment.
Why do I have that athority because the Bible not only tells me to but commands that I do. You want to talk about the Saints of old this is why they where martered to defend the true teaching of Gods word from lies. They were not willing to compromise as you seem to be and for that they died.


Bob C

 

No, I do not.

No, I am not. I do not teach against that interpretation of the Scriptures. I believe what I believe is the correct view of the Scriptures, but I do not teach or argue that the historical view is a wrong view. I am a human being and subject or error, and the other side has a very strong argument.

 

The rules of this board do not permit me to address this post in the manner than it deserves. Therefore I shall say nothing further about it.

 

Which of course is your choice. But that does not mean that those who teach against the doctrinal positions of baptismal regeneration and pedo baptism are being arrogant. Every minister of the Gospel teaches what they feel are biblically correct. Every doctrine in the Scripture is disputed by someone, that does not mean we stop teaching what we believe the Scriptures teach. If you don't like the teaching of a pastor/teacher you are free to dispute it or find a p/t that agrees with you.

Bro Tony

 

I fully agree that we are free to be arrogant if we so choose, but I choose not to be, and I believe that I have the mind of Christ on this point .

 

There you go again, twisting and turning and manipulating what was not said. I don't think Christ did that so be careful claiming to have His mind on this, for in doing so you may be showing yourself---arrogant.

Bro Tony

 

We have Church of Christ members (on the BB) that post fairly regularly in the Other Religions forum. They will verify much of the list that I posted. The most important of the points is the one I quoted above. They treat salvation as a five part process. Hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and baptism, are all different roles played in the process of salvation. It is not simply: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved." This is very legalistic, and turns out to be a works based salvation.
DHK

 

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

Yes, those are some of the verses they use, usually taking them out of context and twisting their meanings to make them fit their own theology. Oneness Pentecostals do the same thing.
DHK

 

And so do Baptists; well, not Conservative Baptists .