neither Calvinist/Arminianists Hold to Reall free will, correct?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    As "libertine" free will is not even accepted as truth by classic arminianism, much less calvinism, correct?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    In Romans 6 Paul says that we are either slaves to sin and sinning or slaves to righteousness resulting in eternal life.

    The slavery to sin is also defined in Eph 2:1-5 and Romans 3.

    However God supernaturally provides the way out by the "Drawing of all mankind to himself" John 12:32.

    Drawing that even Calvinists will admit "enables the choice that depravity disables".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. questdriven

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    On the same vein, is it true that neither holds OSAS as truth? From what I read, neither do.
     
  4. Winman

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    You misunderstand these verses. Paul is not describing behavior, but position.

    A slave does not have to obey his master, a slave can run away from his master. But the master owns the slave and can recapture him by the law.

    This is how Paul is describing being a servant or slave. The moment you sin, you are "sold under sin" (Rom 7:14) and belong to sin just as a slave who was bought in the market. Now, no matter what you do, good or bad, you do for your master "sin" and his wage is death. That is what he is going to pay you no matter what.

    The moment you trust Christ, you are baptized into his body and died to sin with him. You no longer belong to sin, now you belong to Jesus, you have been bought with his blood. And no matter what you do, good or bad, the gift of Jesus is eternal life. Do you always obey Jesus? NO. But by position you belong to him now.

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Paul is saying these persons were slaves or servants to sin. But they were not compelled to obey sin, they were able to obey the gospel. And the moment they did they were made free from sin and became slaves or servants to righteousness.

    This is the fundamental error you make. This is why you believe a person must work to be saved. Your view is pure error.

    To be saved you simply obey or believe the gospel. The moment you do, you are made free from the law and sin. You now belong to Jesus and have everlasting life.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Our will is just as free as our nature is. We freely act within that nature, whether it's fallen and bound, or arisen and free...
     
  6. Winman

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    As Romans 6:17-18 shows, even a servant of sin can obey the gospel and be made free from sin and become a servant of righteousness.

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    A servant or slave of sin has the ability to believe the gospel. When they do, they are made free from sin and become slaves or servants of righteousness.

    If believing on Jesus is free will, then men have free will.
     
  7. Winman

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    Nope, Romans 6:17-18 shows that a servant of sin can obey the gospel and be made free from sin.

    Being a slave does not control you. A slave can disobey his master, a slave can run away.

    And becoming a slave of Jesus does not compel you to obey him either. You can disobey Jesus, but you cannot run away, because he is inside you. :thumbsup:
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1
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    However, God gives them a new heart to seek Him.
     
  9. Winman

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    No, it is after repenting and believing God that he gives you his Spirit and a new heart.

    Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

    Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Notice that to be cleansed occurs first. This is when your sins are forgiven by faith. Only after you believe do you receive the new heart and the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Again, you must turn to God in repentance and believe on Jesus (for only believers are allowed to be baptized Acts 8:37), and afterward you are given a new heart and the Holy Spirit.

    You will never find any other order in scripture. If so, please show it.
     

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