1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured New Covenant Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by RLBosley, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    Baptist Covenant Theology sees thee parts of the Mosaic Law: ceremonial, civil, and moral. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial and civil aspects of the law, with the moral aspect still in effect. The moral aspect (or moral law) actually predates the Mosaic Law. The moral law is the innate knowledge of good and evil. We see it operation in Genesis 4:6-7:

    All men are still under the moral law today. No one can be saved by keeping the moral law, but obeying the moral law is the foundation of an orderly society. That is why God has empowered the magistrate to maintain civil, as well as, spiritual order. But the role of the magistrate is a topic for a future discussion.

    NCT disavows the moral law. It believes Christ did away with all aspects of the law. This is why NCT has been accused of antinomianism, the view that there is no need for the law of God in the Christian life. Extreme views of antinomianism lead to the belief that the more a person sins the more grace God dispenses to them. Paul refuted that ridiculous notion in Romans 6:1-2.

    NCT has been linked to Reformed Baptists, when in actuality it is a fringe movement found among certain Calvinistic Baptists that are unwilling to embrace Baptist Reformed theology. They want to keep their presuppositions, and NCT provides them a safe repository for those presuppositions.

    I recommend a few very good books:

    Covenant Theology: From Adam to Christ

    A Reformed and Baptistic Perspective on God's Covenant

    The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology
     
    #41 Herald, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My commentary was a criticism of NCT...nothing more.

    But let me add that the common walking around Joe off the street does not give a fig about this stuff...its viewed as causing division. That is a real disconnect between pastors & people warming the seats on Sunday.
     
    #42 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  3. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    A lot of that disconnect is caused by the mass amount of unbelievers that are in and accepted by today's churches. I firmly believe that if you are born again you will love God. If you love God you will love to study Him and His word and frankly love theology and doctrine. Maybe not to the level of a scholar or theologian but you won't be totally ignorant either.

    See that's where I would disagree. There is no division of the OT law, and by law I mean the commands given in Leviticus/Deuteronomy, the Sinai Covenant, and that three-fold division is arbitrary. From what I've read in the OT I do not see any acknowledgement there that the law has three parts. And I would agree that the WHOLE law was abolished. But the charge of antinomianism is false because while the "letter" has been abolished we now have a greater law to live up to. Christ Himself said that all the law and prophets were summed up in Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If I do those two things, I won't blaspheme, steal or kill, etc. Just because the actual law covenant was abolished does not mean that the "spirit" behind the law is gone as well. As you said "The moral aspect (or moral law) actually predates the Mosaic Law. The moral law is the innate knowledge of good and evil." I agree with that! And NCT does as well in that the morality behind the Decalogue is unchanging and is still in effect.

    The law was a reflection of God's moral character and that has never and will never change. But to say that the Decalogue itself is still in effect for the church, I think is wrong and not supported by scripture.

    See that's something I was curious about because I so far agree with the NCT interpretation of the covenants and the Israel/church relationship. But I'm not a Calvinist, never have been. I saw that a lot (all?) of the NCT guys I was reading were Calvinistic so I wondered if it was a solely/primarily a Calvinist system. More to consider...

    Thanks for the book references!
     
    #43 RLBosley, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  4. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    NCT is a Calvinist theology.
     
  5. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well so is Covenant theology and I've heard that there are a handful of non-calvinist covenant theologians/pastors.
    I don't see what it would necessarily be exclusive to Calvinism.
     
  6. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    Because inherent in Reformed Covenant Theology is the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. Arminianism rejects the Covenant of Works. It also rejects the Covenant of Grace as commonly defined in Reformed Covenant Theology, because it has application to the Reformed view of soteriology (salvation). Reformed Theology believes that God made the Covenant of Grace with the elect. That is what Arminianism rejects.
     
    #46 Herald, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  7. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    I obviously can get into a lengthy point-by-point debate with you on the nature of the Mosaic law and the continuation of its moral aspect; but that would be quite a time sink compared to the relatively easy subject of Calvinism! :laugh: I suggest you procure those books I recommended and revisit the subject for a later discussion.

    Have a blessed day!
     
    #47 Herald, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  8. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    Fair enough.

    No offense, but my preaching is geared to the saints, not the average Joe off the street. Those Joe's are welcome at all times, but I am assuming those gathered on the Lord's day are sheep that need to be fed.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You want to study so badly.....here is your opportunity. Have at it.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Never assume .... what are you really called to do? ... Go and make disciples of all nations. No offense but you appear to be a bit selective.
     
  11. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    I am also called to "preach the Word" (2 Tim. 4:2). The primary way a pastor/elder makes disciples is to faithfully discharge his duties in the church. Jesus told Peter to, "feed my sheep" (John 21:16). I am not suggesting the Gospel is not to be proclaimed outside the four walls of the church. I am making the point that the primary responsibility of a pastor/elder is to feed the sheep that are within those figurative walls.
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seriously Herald, you should not be so defensive. Do you believe a human being could be born again without getting their selves tangled with Dispy, CT, NCT, etc. This just becomes a marked dividing line for some people & another reason to fight & argue. I got enough fights with people claiming I'm a heretic because my soterology is Doctrines of Grace. :laugh:
     
  13. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    I guess it is my strong position on preaching the Word. It is done so infrequently, and so poorly in this country that I see it as the greatest threat to the Church. It is one of my buttons that is easy to push.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And that's what I do...push buttons...but only to cause conflict because without it there is no understanding & w/o understanding there is only wrong decisions.
     
    #54 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  15. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    You are a good button pusher! :laugh:
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    New Jersey b&b :thumbs:
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,461
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did I tell you I'm going to be taking instruction from some real serious Dutchies @ a Reformed church in Sussex county...straight up hard core take no prisoner types.

    I am not joining them however..takes a nut like me to get Dutch Reform people to adopt a Baptist & I'm an ahole, so lets see how long this lasts.
     
  18. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree that there is always grace and law but we are no longer under the law. Satisfying the law is impossible. That's why Jesus had to die on the cross in order to provide a way for us to be reconciled to God. Did Jesus come to replace the law? No, He came to fulfill it in Himself for us.
     
  19. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand that but since NCt rejects the Covenant of Grace I see no reason why it should be exclusively Calvinistic.

    I plan on getting those books... eventually. I currently have 10 on my shelf that I have yet to read, plus another 15 or so in my Amazon wishlist. :laugh:

    Also, just so we are clear - While yes I think that all the actual Laws of the Mosaic Covenant have been abolished, that isn't to say that the "Morality" behind the "moral law" has changed. We are held to the same if not higher standard under the New Covenant.

    Thanks... i think.

    That is EXACTLY the right attitude to have. Amen! :thumbs:
     
    #59 RLBosley, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  20. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dispensationalism is a construct of John Darby in the late 1800's. The new covenant is straight from the Bible and has been around for 2,000 years.
     
Loading...