New Deal II

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Dragoon68, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68
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    Here we go with New Deal II. This smells like the CCC.

    Obama: Country Facing 'Economic Crisis of Historic Proportions'

    Obama's idea is to create jobs by building roads and bridges and modernize schools!

    Who's money will be used to pay for that? What new government agencies will be created to handle all this? Do we really need more roads and bridges and modernized schools of the type that would be built or re-built? Why can't local people handle this where the roads, bridges, and schools are needed? Why do we continue to hide the true costs of all these grand projects by shuffling money off to Washington only to have to agree to their terms to get some of it back so we can build a road, a bridge, or a school?

    How much of this will go to fill more bureaucrat jobs in the various agencies? Perhaps the high school nearest my home needs ten assistant principals instead of the six it already has? Perhaps the road maintenance crews need a few more workers to watch the one or two doing the work? Perhaps we need some more people developing forms and manuals in Washington to tell the people in the State bureaucracies what to do so they can tell the county what to do?

    What we need to do is reduce the size and scope of the federal, state, and local governments and let the people figure out what they need and want to fund wherever they live. We need to shutdown most of government and let the talent - whatever it might be - find gainful employment in private industry.
     
  2. just-want-peace

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    Emphasis mine

    Couldn't have said it better - even with "Brittanica & Webster"!!:thumbs:
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    Federal Funding programs make no sense. They take money from the states, it gets dwindled down via government red tape, and then it gets sent back to the states with new rules attached. 100 Dollars becomes 40 Dollars. The 60 goes to campaign promises and unnecessary pay checks.

    Leave it all at the state level and let states govern themselves.We have the most inefficient system imaginable.
     
  4. Crabtownboy

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    Is that why the Iraq war costs a billion a week?
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    The Iraq war is another subject all together. Not that you are interested in the difference between apples and refrigerators.
     
  6. JustChristian

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    Actually, outside of the economic crisis our infrastructure is in very bad shape.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Look Out Below! America's Infrastructure Is Crumbling

    by Eric Kelderman, Stateline.org Staff Writer
    *Stateline.org was a project of the Pew Research Center from 2004 to 2008. As of July 1, 2008, it is a project of the Pew Center on the States.
    January 22, 2008
    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/699/look-out-below


    The numbers are staggering. More than one in four of America's nearly 600,000 bridges need significant repairs or are burdened with more traffic than they were designed to carry, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation.

    A third of the country's major roadways are in substandard condition -- a significant factor in a third of the more than 43,000 traffic fatalities each year, according to the Federal Highway Administration. Traffic jams waste 4 billion hours of commuters' time and nearly 3 billion gallons of gasoline a year, the Texas Transportation Institute calculates.

    Dams, too, are at risk. The number of dams that could fail has grown 134% since 1999 to 3,346, and more than 1,300 of those are "high-hazard," meaning their collapse would threaten lives, the Association of State Dam Safety Officials (ASDSO) found. More than a third of dam failures or near failures since 1874 have happened in the last decade.

    Underground, aging and inadequate sewer systems spill an estimated 1.26 trillion gallons of untreated sewage every year, resulting in an estimated $50.6 billion in cleanup costs, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

    "Much of America is held together by Scotch tape, bailing wire and prayers," said Donald F. Kettl, director of the Fels Institute of Government at the University of Pennsylvania.

    Fixing these problems and others threatening the nation's critical infrastructure would cost $1.6 trillion -- more than half of the annual federal budget, the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) estimates. And that doesn't include what it will cost for new capacity to serve a growing population.

    Recognizing the importance of structures so integral to U.S. commerce and Americans' well-being and safety, local, state and federal governments already are budgeting nearly two-thirds of the $1.6 trillion needed for infrastructure work. The problem is they raid many of those funds for other purposes, ASCE says.

    Coming up with new money to fill the funding gap has become a political nightmare, with politicians and the public trying to avoid anything that looks like a higher tax.

    "We have convinced ourselves that infrastructure is free, that someone else should be paying or that we have paid our share," said Mike Pagano, an urban planning expert at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

    Infrastructure is the four-syllable jawbreaker that governments use to describe the concrete, stone, steel, wires and wood that Americans rely on every day but barely notice until something goes awry. Broadly speaking, it includes airports, the electrical energy grid, hazardous and solid waste storage sites, navigable inland waterways, public parks, schools and even the security to protect all of those structures.

    While the federal government bears the broadest responsibility to keep America's gears turning, state and local governments are accountable for supplying more than half of the money and all of the manpower to build and maintain the country's vast ground transportation network. States also have regulatory oversight of 85 percent of dams and help fund drinking- water and wastewater systems. Federal and state officials share the blame for shortfalls in America's maintenance budget. Congress hasn't raised the federal gasoline tax of 18.4 cents per gallon -- which pays for about 45 percent of all road construction -- since 1993, nor have many state leaders been willing to charge drivers more at the pump to pay for local road repairs.

    The association of state dam officials contends that most state dam safety programs are underfunded, understaffed and often don't have adequate authority to regulate safety standards or emergency plans. Likewise, the federal dam safety program, which helps pay for the upkeep of structures, never has been fully funded by Congress.

    The EPA estimates that the nation is falling short on water infrastructure by $22 billion annually. The federal Clean Water State Revolving Fund, which makes low-interest loans to clean up or protect water supplies, has shrunk from more than $3 billion in 1990 to roughly $1 billion in 2007.

    The consequences of skimping can be dire:

    * On Aug. 1, 2007, the Interstate 35 bridge in downtown Minneapolis collapsed into the Mississippi River, killing 13 people and injuring at least 80. Losing the state's most heavily traveled bridge is costing an estimated $400,000 daily in extra commuting time and gasoline, said Brian McClung, a spokesman for Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R).
    (A report issued Jan. 15 by the National Transportation Safety Board blamed the bridge collapse on inadequate steel "gussett" plates that hold the structures angled beams together.)
    * Steam pipe explosions in Midtown Manhattan last summer killed one person, injured dozens and disrupted businesses.
    * In March 2006, the 116-year-old Kaloko Reservoir Dam in Hawaii collapsed after heavy rains, killing seven people and causing nearly $15 million in damage.
    * In August 2005, after Hurricane Katrina, levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain gave way, flooding major parts of New Orleans. The storm and flooding are blamed for more than a thousand deaths and more than $100 billion in damage.
    * In May 2002, the Interstate 40 bridge near Webbers Falls, Okla., collapsed into the Arkansas River, killing 14 people.

    Despite urgent calls to prevent more tragedy from failed infrastructure, politicians and voters have signaled they are gun-shy of new taxes. After the collapse of the Minneapolis bridge, Minnesota politicians failed to agree to a statewide transportation package, putting off to the 2008 legislative session more debate over a proposed 5-cent hike in the state's gasoline tax. Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) twice vetoed gas-tax hikes before the bridge fell.

    Read the full report at stateline.org.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We made the decision to spend money on weapons systems and war rather than clean water, safe bridges, upgraded roads, adequate sewage treatment systems, etc. We're getting what we paid for.
     
  7. Salty

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    Heres a clue: 10th amendment
     
  8. rbell

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    Wait, I'm confused.

    I thought Obama was Lincoln incarnate. Is he FDR now?

    Considering Social Insecurity (and specifically Congress's theft of it) will bankrupt the country, I'm not sure I'd want to be tagged with that moniker.
     
  9. targus

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    Please stay on topic.

    For as many times as you have scolded others for this I would think that you would teach by example.
     
  10. KenH

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    If the Congress passes something similar to the Diamond-Orszag Plan, then Social Security won't bankrupt the country.

    www.centrists.org/pages/2003/12/11_lemieux_wealth.html
     
  11. windcatcher

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    Gas Taxes, In Order By State
    January, 2007
    State ยข PG State

    Alabama 20.3
    Alaska 08.0
    Arizona 19.0
    Arkansas 19.0

    California 41.6
    Colorado 22.0
    Connecticut 35.5

    Delaware 23.0
    D.C. 20.0

    Florida 31.1

    Georgia 22.8

    Hawaii 41.7

    Idaho 25.0
    Illnois 36.1
    Indiana 29.6
    Iowa 21.7

    Kansas 25.0
    Kentucky 18.5

    Louisiana 20.0

    Maine 27.4
    Maryland 23.5
    Massachusetts 23.5
    Michigan 34.0
    Minnesota 22.0
    Mississippi 18.8
    Missouri 17.6
    Montana 27.8

    Nebraska 26.2
    Nevada 33.5
    New Hampshire 20.6
    New Jersey 14.5
    New Mexico 18.0
    New York 44.5
    North Carolina 26.4
    North Dakota 23.0

    Ohio 28.0
    Oklahoma 17.0
    Oregon 24.0

    Pennsylvania 31.1

    Rhode Island 31.0

    South Carolina 16.8
    South Dakota 24.0

    Tennessee 21.4
    Texas 20.0

    Utah 24.5

    Vermont 20.0
    Virginia 19.3

    Washington 31.0
    Wisconsin 32.9
    Wyoming 14.0
    West Virginia 27.0

    Plus fed 18.4 cents per gallon
     
  12. JustChristian

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    Al Gore wanted to put Social Security "in a lock box" in 2000. Strong leadership from our current President might have accomplished that. Instead Bush and the Republicans derided Gore's comment. As someone who's starting to think about retirement I wish Bush had done something, anything to safeguard Social Security. This isn't FDR's fault. It's the fault of succeeding Presidents, both Democratic and Republican.
     
  13. billwald

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    Washington State has a high gas tax because we don't have a state income tax. The gas tax is dedicated to highway fixing.

    >Obama's idea is to create jobs by building roads and bridges and modernize schools!

    Bush's idea is to create jobs by giving money to bank execs so they can send it to offshore banks.

    >Who's money will be used to pay for that?

    Your grandkids will pay for either idea.

    > What new government agencies will be created to handle all this?

    The Treasury can send it directly to the states. At least the states are required to report how the money is spent. There is an FOI law suit against the Treasury to tell us where the money went.
     
  14. dragonfly

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    This wonderful idea from the Obama camp is one of the reasons he was elected. It will be great to finally have a president who sees past helping only the rich at the expense of the poor.

    It is past time to invest more into our infrastructure. It will take another FDR to do it and, thank God we may finally have a leader who sees the importance of doing just that.
     
  15. Dragoon68

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    Obama is rich. He's one of the ones he talks about! Now let's see if he becomes poor in order to help the poor.

    Helping the poor is not why we have a federal government. If they were any good at it the problem would have been solved generations ago. We can take care of the really poor a whole lot better in the private sector. There aren't that many really poor people in America compared to some corners of the world. There are a whole lot of people who who are just average - isn't that the meaning of an average - want to become rich. That's what motivates them to work hard, to save, to invest, to take risks, and to keep trying. Some will make it and some will not. It's not the government's business to do that for us.

    Politicians have been using the "we've got to help the poor" line for generation after generation and it's totally bogus. They don't help anything by getting people onto the government payroll - directly or indirectly.

    Yes, the infrastructure - roads, railroads, airports, etc. - is always in need of work. The more of it that's done with private money the better. The parts of it that "must" be done by government because there's no reasonable way to extract a profit doing it should be handled at the lowest level of government possible. The less the federal government has to do with it the better. Their meddling always creates some kind of unfair advantage for one group or another and props up concepts that would otherwise fail. The tons on public money spent for roads actually encourages the problems we face with transportation. We just keep building an infrastructure based on private automobiles and think it's free. The tons of public money for waterways in another one. Let the users and consumers pay for what they need and it will regulate itself to the most efficient and least costly solutions.

    Jobs are owned by employers. Workers own the skills to do the jobs. Government really has neither since it just skims productivity from the rest of us albeit some for essential services that it was designed to do such as law enforcement and military defense. But the best way to improve the economy and to create jobs is to let people with money have at making more money. They'll invest it is ideas that work. They'll own the jobs resulting from their ideas create but they'll need workers to accomplish their plans. They can't do it without workers. Government, on the other hand, just robs good talent from the private sector. For every government employee or every government project there has to be several private sector employees making real goods and services in exchange for real cash to pay for the government's foolishness.

    This is what Obamanites just don't understand and probably never will. Or maybe they do but like the comfort of government based jobs because it gives them a comfortable life.
     
    #15 Dragoon68, Nov 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2008
  16. OldRegular

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    This is a point I was trying to make with my thread on Obama and a depression. It sets the stage for another Federal Government power grab.:BangHead: :BangHead:
     
  17. OldRegular

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    It was the democrats who took Social Security out of a lock box in the 1960"s. It was the democrat House that authorized every spending bill, and robbed SS, for 40 years from 1954-1994.

    Al Gore is a tree hugger. What more need be said?:BangHead:
     
  18. just-want-peace

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    Dragoon68, you do have a gift for making the complex simple!

    Now, if you can just figure a way to get this info to the masses without some "Funk & Wagnells" wannabe putting in their flowery phrases that sound good but "signify nothing"---!:thumbs:
     
  19. OldRegular

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    The military is by its very nature inefficient but I believe the cost is more like 10 billion per month. You are high by a factor of 3.
     
  20. Dragoon68

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    Thanks! Some will say I am just simple-minded which may be true!
     
    #20 Dragoon68, Nov 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2008

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