New dispensation of salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Jan 25, 2011.

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  1. webdog

    webdog
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    On another thread a poster said the following
    Is this orthodox, and who else believes in this mysterious salvation that has not been revealed to man? I believe this to be on par with Millenial Exclusion, what the BB has deemed a "damnable heresy".

    The irony is this poster has also said this...
     
    #1 webdog, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2011
  2. convicted1

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    Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


    You take "faith" away, and you take "salvation away.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  3. Luke2427

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    None of those verses support your conclusion.

    But I will tell you what I find disturbing. You DEMAND that faith is essential for salvation for all men in all ages and at the same time do NOT think the cross was necessary for MOST who will be in Heaven.

    That is absolutely horrific to me. You put a higher premium on faith than the cross.

    And based upon the way you think of faith, that means you put a higher premium on what MAN DOES for salvation than on what GOD DOES!

    OH, the things people will do to keep from yielding to the Doctrines of Grace!
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Romans 5:6-10

    6a For when we were yet without strength, (that is, dead in sin and trespasses, weakened by the sin that is in us, which includes LACK OF THE FAITH THAT PLEASES GOD.....)

    6B in due time (not in due "eternity", but in due time, at the appointed day, hour, minute, and second, the Son of God/Son of Man, voluntarily laid down His life, alone up on that hill, abandoned by His friends, forsaken by His God).
    Did His friends have faith ?) How dare we at this age demand faith BEFORE redemption, when Christ went up that cross with those He called His friends abandoning Him in FAITHLESS fear ?


    6C Christ died for the ungodly. ( How can one who has faith be termed ungodly by the Spirit, the true author of the Bible, the God who sees the heart, the deeds, the person, the God who seeks a faith that pleases Him ?
    We of this board have not been born and displayed the faith we boast of and pride in today, YET CHRIST WENT TO THE CROSS WITHOUT WAITING FOR US TO HAVE THAT FAITH, to effect the eternal redemption and finish the atonement for ALL His people, faithless and faithful.
    )


    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die : yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die . .....(Those who have served have known of leaders they will follow anywhere, even to death)



    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (does that need more explaining ? While we were yet idolaters, while we were yet pagans, while we were yet atheists, while we were yet murderers, while we were yet fornicators, while we were yet without the faith that pleases God, while were yet with the faith that pleased us and men, while we were yet hypocrites and continue to be, while we were yet liars, while we were yet scoffers, CHRIST DIED for us).


    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (did it say we have been justified by OUR FAITH in His blood ? or by His blood, alone. Did it say we shall be saved from wrath through OUR FAITH in Him, or THROUGH Him).


    10a For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, (not when we became faith-filled believers, or faithful friends, but when we were YET ENEMIES...when we yet REFUSED to believe that OUR FAITH was not a component that God required, that Christ can effect the atonement, the reconciliation, and our salvation APART FROM OUR weak, wavering, here today gone tomorrow faith because HE will please God with His faith on our behalf).


    10bmuch more, being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life. (and it's grace ALL THE WAY. His death, His life, His resurrection. apart and separate from the faith which we place on Him as His friends.)
     
  5. Steadfast Fred

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    The Bible demands faith.

    Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    and that same Bible tells you that while we were YET ENEMIES, Christ died for us.

    So, throw out one verse in favor of the other ?

    Doesn't that make us children of the devil instead of God ?
     
  7. Steadfast Fred

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    Throw out what verse? I have not thrown out any verses.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    I didn't say you did.
     
  9. convicted1

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    No, dear Brother Luke, I DO NOT put a higher premium on faith than I do the cross. My faith is in Jesus, in the Father, and in the Holy Ghost, and also in the works of the cross. For without the cross, I could not be born again. I put my faith on the cross, moreso, on the One who died on the cross. God will not save without faith, period. You can quote, twist, bend, warp, stretch, all the scriptures you want, and none of them will support God saving "outside" of faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him. So, with faith, we can please Him.

    I also don't put a higher demand on what man does, you have put words in my post that weren't there. However, man does have a responsibilty in salvation......hear or forbear. When Jesus "rings our phone", its up to us to pick up and say "hello".

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  10. Luke2427

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    No Willis. U said that all kinds of people get to heaven apart from the cross but no one gets there without faith. It is literally your contention that babies go to heaven because they are not sinners- that they do not need the blood of Christ. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God w/out faith. That is strange to me.
     
  11. kyredneck

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    OK.

    Show me where it says all those that don't please Him are going to spend eternity burning in hell. What do you do with this invert?:

    to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5:5

    This one was definitely displeasing to the Lord yet was saved eternally.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Jan 26, 2011
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  12. kyredneck

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    Sounds about as mysterious as the wind blowing where it wills [Jn 3:8]. Sounds about as mysterious as those in other nations being born from above outside of the Mosaic Covenant [Ps 87]. Sounds about as mysterious as to how Gentiles that had not the law could have that law written in their hearts [Ro 2:14,15].

    Does Millenial Exclusion make a clear distinction between the effectual call and the gospel call like the Old Baptists do/did? The OLD Southern Baptists used to make a clear distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion as the Primitives still do today..

    http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.htm l

    Excerpts:

    "In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective."

    "James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374)."

    "John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68)."

    "John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279)."

    "B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287)."

    "The truth concerning the Bible doctrine of regeneration is the same today as it was when God the Holy Spirit taught it to the inspired writers of Holy Scriptures, and as it was understood by our Baptist forefathers who labored to the glory of God in the name of Jesus Christ within the confines of the Southern Baptist denomination. But then, that should not surprise us, because truth does not change. If the rank and file of Southern Baptists today do not embrace and impart the Bible doctrine of regeneration as set forth in this brief survey, then it must be either that they have not been taught or that they refuse to be taught."

    "Those who have not been taught need to be instructed. We must do all we can to teach this glorious truth to them for two reasons: 1) Their spiritual well-being depends upon a right understanding of this truth. 2) The task of mission and evangelism cannot truly advance apart from a proper understanding of this truth. Those, however, who refuse to be instructed in this way need to be identified as having forsaken the biblical and historic Southern Baptist understanding of this essential doctrine. Whether in the pulpit, the class room, the agency administrative office, or the trustee board room, it must be acknowledged that there has been a violation of doctrinal integrity when men (and/or women) teach an aberration of this vital subject concerning the new birth."

    Here is a quote from Winman (you know Winman, who claims not to read commentaries or the works of man and all the while profusely quoting Reformed writers):

    Winman thinks it awful that Calvinists could believe as Voorhiss states here, “ An infant’s faith may not come until years after God has worked by His Holy Spirit to regenerate him or her.” [Incidentally Winman, thank you very much for this excellent quote from Voorhiss; please give more quotes]

    Well, I've even a more awful thought for the synergists: What if there are those of His children that God has no intention of bringing into the visible kingdom of Christ?

    Do you look at faith in Christ as something that you MUST do and totally disregard what a blessed foretaste of glory divine that our timely salvation really is?
     
    #12 kyredneck, Jan 26, 2011
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  13. Steadfast Fred

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    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    The only means of Salvation is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    If one does not have faith in Him, will He still save them? If we are to believe the Bible,(and I most certainly do) He won't.

    John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    They that don't have faith shall not see life. Doesn't get any clearer than that.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    well, all I can say is if knowing the Name of Jesus is a necessary component of one's eternal salvation, then nobody started to really, really get saved until after the cross, and after 11 men, plus later on Paul, went out to spread the Name and the good news, a.k.a the gospel.

    will that be a fair assumption ?
     
  15. kyredneck

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    Again, show me where this salvation [deliverance], means being saved from eternity burning in hell.

    Amen

    Once again, show me, show me, show me, where that Greek word sozo translated 'saved', is used in the eternal sense here.

    Is it unthinkable to you that Christ here is refferring to the 'quality' of living life as an immortal? You know, "Lay hold on eternal life". Only a redeemed, born from above, child of God has the option of doing that.

    Yes, those that believe have life already.

    When you apply the Preterist Modifier to this and realize that He is speaking to 'that generation' that was prophesied of in DT 32, 'the wrath' [to come] takes on a deeper meaning, as in the 'severity of God' on those Jews that fell.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. swzw sozo sode'-zo

    Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    Acts 4:12
    Verse 12. Neither is there salvation. The word salvation properly denotes any preservation, or keeping anything in a safe state; a preserving it from harm. It signifies, also, deliverance from any evil of body or mind; from pain, sickness, danger, etc., Ac 7:25. But it is in the New Testament applied particularly to the work which the Messiah came to do, "to seek and to save that which was lost," Lu 19:10. This work refers primarily to a deliverance of the soul from sin, Mt 1:21; Ac 5:31; Lu 4:18; Ro 8:21; Ga 5:1.
     
  17. psalms109:31

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    Spirit

    Matthew 10:28
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Psalm 35:9
    Then my soul will rejoice in the LORD and delight in his salvation.

    Psalm 62:1
    [ Psalm 62 ] For the director of music. For Jeduthun. A psalm of David. Truly my soul finds rest in God; my salvation comes from him.

    Psalm 119:81
    כ Kaph My soul faints with longing for your salvation, but I have put my hope in your word.

    Isaiah 61:10
    I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

    1 Peter 1:9
    for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    I believe the Spirit of God will return to God and those souls that are in it. The soul that is in the flesh will perish with the flesh for eternity. Everything outside of the Spirit will perish, but His Spirit will be saved.

    The salvation is for the soul and those are who are in Christ, because God cannot destroy Himself.

    Evil spirit is what I call anti-god, anti-life, death.
     
  18. Steadfast Fred

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    Prior to the crucifixion of Christ, the Jews looked forward to the time when their Messiah would bring Salvation. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see Him in his day.

    At the time of Christ's rising from the dead, many that were dead were seen alive in the holy city. Christ had descended into the earth to release those who had looked forward to His Salvation from their captivity. They did indeed know who their Messiah was when He freed them from the chains of death.
     
  19. convicted1

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    4982. sozo sode'-zo from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

    Here is from the "blue letter bible" on line:

    1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

    a) one (from injury or peril)

    1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

    1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

    b) to save in the technical biblical sense

    1) negatively

    a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment

    b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

    Acts 2:2 1And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

    Acts 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Whenever it talks of saving/saved, I believe it is referring to salvation. When the Lord saved me, I got eternal life right then and there. I am not waiting on eternal life, because I already have it by what Jesus did for me!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  20. convicted1

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    *sigh*

    NEVER, did I say that anyone got/gets to heaven without the cross. Jesus was the One, true sacrificial Lamb to atone for the sin of the whole world. Without this atonement, the penalty for sin would still be unpaid. When Jesus died on the cross, He appeased the wrath of God for sin. Now, those who die in faith, die in Christ......how is that leaving the cross out? The OT saints died looking ahead towards the cross, whereas we are looking back at the cross. This doesn't leave the cross out of ANYONE who will ever see the glories of heaven.

    Now, without faith in the cross, and the One who died on it, they will die lost and be tormented in the lake of fire eternally.

    I hope this clears this up better!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
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