New meaning for old verses

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Amy.G, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    Ok guys, it looks like I've stirred up a hornet's nest by studying reformed theology, but here are some verses that have always eluded me until I started looking at them differently (through the eyes of RF). There are many more, but we'll start here.


    Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

    Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


    If the Father draws someone, then they will come to the Son and will never be cast out. They will be saved. It's a done deal.

    But not everyone comes to Christ. Why? Because they were not drawn by the Father. If they had been drawn by the Father, they would have come and they would have received eternal life.

    The only conclusion is that not everyone is drawn by the Father. The Father does not give all of humanity to Christ. Only the ones that the Father gives will come to Christ because they have been drawn to Him by the Father.



    We'll just start there and let the :tonofbricks: fall where they may. Which will probably be on my head. :laugh:

    Be nice!
     
  2. Steven2006

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    Amy, I have struggled with some of these same verses, but I do think it can also make a difference what you highlight.

    Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

    "and he one who comes" sounds like free will.
     
  3. Steven2006

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    Amy, I am not sure how you reconcile those verses that show election, and free will. But I think they are both true. The Father does give men to Jesus, but the men have to come.
     
  4. npetreley

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    Amen, Amy. Oddly enough, one of the passages that started me on the road to reformed theology was the following:

    I couldn't deny the fact that Jesus was clearly saying that God doesn't want some people to understand what he's saying. It might have been a hard pill to swallow, but there was too much other scripture (like your quoted verses) that matched the idea. (God had been preparing me for this truth, so it wasn't hard for me to accept it - but that's another story.)
     
  5. TCGreek

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    Isn't it interesting that Scripture never says that people are lost because God didn't elect them? Rather, Scripture maintains that people are lost because of their rebellion in sin.
     
    #5 TCGreek, Oct 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2007
  6. Amy.G

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    Here are more:
    Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

    They would have repented??? Why didn't God send them somebody like Jonah?
    He evidently chose not to.


    Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.

    Again, God could have sent someone to Sodom. But, He didn't.

    Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from {the} wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

    God hides things from some, preventing them from understanding.

    Mat 11:26 "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
    Mat 11:27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal {Him.}

    Jesus reveals the Father only because it is His will to do so.
     
  7. npetreley

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    I have to say it's really fun to watch you discover all the passages that teach election so clearly, just like I did. It wasn't long before I got to the point where I couldn't understand how people could build a theology around single words like "all" and "whosoever" in the face of the mountains of clear scripture that taught God's sovereign election. On the one side you have countless passages. On the other side, a few words. ;)
     
  8. webdog

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    The big, bolded is the problem :tear:
    The other problem is assuming the converse and inverse of truthful statments are also truth. Scripture does NOT say what you just did.
     
    #8 webdog, Oct 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2007
  9. Isaiah40:28

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    LOL
    sounds like an open-and-shut case you've made there.
    :)
     
  10. Isaiah40:28

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    Last week, I almost posted to you about sounding like you had had a change of heart towards Calvinism, but I didn't want to put you on the spot.
    It's nice to read your posts.
    Keep asking the questions, the word of God can stand up to them.
     
  11. npetreley

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    How does it sound like free will? Those who the Father gives are the ones who come.

    Here's a great sermon on this verse:

    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/sum&sub.htm
     
  12. Amy.G

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    What does it say then?
    How do you interpret it?

    I'm not debating, I'm asking. :)
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    RF = Rural Free (delivery of mail)?
     
  14. Amy.G

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    :laugh:
    Reformed Theology.

    Did I say RF? I'm getting old! Or dumb! :laugh:
     
  15. Helen

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    Let me add something here, Amy. If you take the verses you quoted and do not consider anything else in the Bible then yes, you are being quite logical with your conclusion.

    HOWEVER, we should always let Bible explalin Bible. Remember, Jesus said things like "Come to me, ALL ye that labor and are heavy-laden." In Isaiah 1, God invites the sinner to "Come, let us reason together." In Hebrews we read the writer pleading with the readers to not harden their hearts against the Lord.

    Not just these three times, but over and over again we read invitations, pleas, encouragements, admonitions regarding turning to the Lord. Are all of these moot because the Lord has already chosen who would be His? Doesn't that make a mockery out of parts of the Bible, if not the whole thing?

    You were concerned about some verses in John 6. But interspersed with those verses we find "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Early in chapter six, Jesus informed some questioners who wanted to know what work God requires, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    So who is it the Father draws to Christ? If we look at Romans 1 we get a clue, for there is says that God's wrath is being poured out on those who suppress the truth by their wicked actions. In other words, they saw the truth, or some of it, and deliberately suppressed it -- pushed it down and away from themselves -- in order to follow their own desires.

    This is so different from the promise of God in Jeremiah that "if you seek me you will find me if you seek me with your whole heart."

    So it seems that what the Bible is telling us is to, at the very least, seek the truth. And if you really want the truth, the Father will lead you to the Son and you will be saved, for the Son is The Truth.

    and so here, as in all areas of your life, I urge you most strongly to simply seek the truth -- and remember that Bible explains Bible.
     
  16. webdog

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    Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    It says simply that whoever comes to Christ is drawn by the Father, and Christ will raise them up on the last day. I believe both cal's and non cal's agree with the truth that man does not seek after God without God's drawing. This verse says nothing of God not drawing some while drawing others...what you implied earlier.

    Also, earlier today I asked if there was any outside influence that has changed you stance, to which you replied you didn't believe so. In the OP, you stated that you have been reading Scripture through a reformed view...through the "eyes of rf" to be precise. What reformed view, and how? Who's eyes, and what kind? This to me would seem like an influence, no? I'm starting another thread on what and who influences our beliefs.
     
    #16 webdog, Oct 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2007
  17. Amy.G

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    What I meant by through the eyes of RT was just with that view in mind, not through the teachings of anyone. I've always looked at scripture through the eyes of freewill and many verses don't make sense when you look at them that way.

    You left off part of the scripture.
    Of course you can't come to Christ unless the Father draws you. We all agree on that.
    But, those that the Father draws will come. Not might come or have an opportunity to come, but will come. And those that come are saved.

    Those that don't come, weren't called or drawn. Otherwise everyone would be saved because everyone would be drawn and being drawn they would come to Christ, and coming to Christ they would be saved. But...not everyone is saved. Therefore, not everyone is drawn.
     
  18. webdog

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    I'm not sure what I left off...

    44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

    Notice it says everyone who listens and learns from Him...comes. It says nothing at all about everyone that is drawn comes, and consequently your other deductions that stem from that. Those who do listen and learn, have faith (faith comes by hearing, and hearing from the Word of God) WILL come.
     
  19. Amy.G

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    Sorry WD,
    Here's the verse I was talking about:


    Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

    The Father does the giving and the drawing. All who are given to Christ by the Father will be saved. The only way to Christ is by the drawing of the Father.

    If everyone were drawn, everyone would be saved.
     
  20. webdog

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    Wrong. That Scripture says what it says. It is speaking of the security of those who come (v. 35), not drawn.

    As Helen pointed out, alone these verses can very well say what you are saying. Let Scripture explain Scripture.
     

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