Ok guys, it looks like I've stirred up a hornet's nest by studying reformed theology, but here are some verses that have always eluded me until I started looking at them differently (through the eyes of RF). There are many more, but we'll start here. Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. If the Father draws someone, then they will come to the Son and will never be cast out. They will be saved. It's a done deal. But not everyone comes to Christ. Why? Because they were not drawn by the Father. If they had been drawn by the Father, they would have come and they would have received eternal life. The only conclusion is that not everyone is drawn by the Father. The Father does not give all of humanity to Christ. Only the ones that the Father gives will come to Christ because they have been drawn to Him by the Father. We'll just start there and let the :tonofbricks: fall where they may. Which will probably be on my head. :laugh: Be nice!