News: Brand Name Preachers Have No Integrity

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by eaglewings, Oct 14, 2002.

  1. eaglewings

    eaglewings
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    Brand Name Preachers Have No Integrity

    "·Readers pay exorbitant prices for the books of Christian superstars, never knowing that the volumes are actually written by no-name "ghosts." Among the big names pulling this stunt: Hal Lindsey, Chuck Colson, Jim Bakker, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, John Ankerberg, Hank Hanegraaff, David Jeremiah and Jerry Falwell." Texe Marre

    References:
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/9te/9te026.html
    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/graham.html
    http://www.webprowire.com/summaries/32914.html
    http://www.counterpunch.org/alexgraham.html
    http://cnt10.tripod.com/graham.htm
    Link to the Maranatha Prophecy Page

    *** Eaglewings, if you have a point, please be kind enough to make it. But we'd like to ask you to keep it to a brief paragraph, and provide links (as I have edited your lenghty post above and left your links for a reference). *** Barnabas, BB Administrator [​IMG]

    [ October 24, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: The Squire ]
     
  2. Mike McK

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    I think you're probably better off taking anything he says with a grain of salt.

    Actually, that's not lying anymore than a college prfessor having a TA teach a class is "lying".

    I think he should be regarded as a role model to the elderly.

    Billy Graham has spoken out enough about his belief that Christ has assured his salvation that I think we can assume he was joking.

    Read his autobiography, "Just As I Am".

    He talks about his relationship with Nixon (and Truman) at great length.

    Actually, it was Nixon who made the statement. Graham was just being polite and trying not to embarass the president. Nevertheless, he has profusely apologized.

    He has been an outstanding example for more than sixty years.

    I think we can cut him some slack for a moment of bad judgement for which he seems to be truly repentant and for which his outreach to Jewish people all over the world more than makes up.

    Wait a second, you just got done telling us how old and decrepit he is. On top of his advanced age and his myriad illnesses, you expect him to have total recall of memory?

    The difference between his use of the phrase and Clinton's use of the phrase is that Clinton used that phrase to distance himself from his actions.

    Graham clearly took respnsibility for his.

    I fail to see the hypocrisy here.

    How does this make him an "aspirant war criminal"?

    You still haven't demonstrated that Billy Graham is "decietful".

    As I understand it, he is repentant over this.

    The ministry is no longer registered with ECFA and, therefore, no longer subject to it's bylaws.

    Also, the rules, as you quoted them say "a majority of board members". You haven't demonstrated that the graham family constituted a "majority" of board members.

    I would be proud of my son, too, if he did that.

    You've got to be kidding. :rolleyes:

    Sounds like my kind of guy. [​IMG]

    Look, he's been very honest and forthcoming about his misspent youth. We can see by the things that he's done since that he's obviously repentant and we can see by his "fruit" that god has been at work in him.

    Everyone has done something in their past that by your standards would disqualify them for ministry. Sooner or later, there has to be room for some sort of redemption.

    And what did they find?

    And yet, you still felt compelled to comment on it in your second paragraph.

    To whom?

    How do you know?

    I agree. Maybe one day, Clinton will find Christ and justify Graham's faith in him.

    I would tend to agree with Billy. Clinton knows how to make a persuasive argument and to present his ideas clearly and simply.

    Graham has no editorial control over Christianity Today. If you have a problem with the magazine, you're better off taking it up with them.

    But you haven't shown any such lack of accountability.

    I trust you will provide "proof" of this?

    In Summary the following facts are undeniable and true about Billy:

    If that's what the Board of Trustees voted for him, then it's perfectly legal and perfectly within their rights to do so.

    I'm not sure I get the "being a friend of Nixon" comment but I think it's a little unreasonable of you to overlook an entire lifetime reaching out to people of all religions, nationalities and ethnicities in favor of one moment of bad judgement.

    Good for him.

    He has preached endlessly over the last sixty-plus years that he is assured of his salvation in Christ and I think to overlook that in favor of one self deprecating comment is a bit disingenuous on your part.

    He hasn't supported Clinton unconditionally. He has acknowledged Clinton's sins.

    I don't think it was his place to forgive Clinton, but it's certainly not your place to condemn him for it.

    That's not unethical or dishonest.

    You haven't provided any evidence to that end.

    Is he a drunk now? Aren't you glad your Heavenly Father doesn't take that same view towards you?

    You haven't offered any sort of evidence to support this.

    It's importamt to note that the sources you cite are all opinion pieces and not any sort of unbiased journalism.

    Being new here, I trust you will do better next time.

    Mike

    [ October 14, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  3. JonathanG

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    Yep Good Message Smoke Eater. I see time and time again where this and other boards have posts that are trying to tear down fellow Christians. Who has not stumbled? Abraham, Paul(Saul), David, whom do we cast out next. I'm not sure of the accusations but I know that the Grahams are on the front lines helping their neighbors, bringing people to Christ. With some of the things I did in my younger day I guess I don't qualify in many eyes to be a Christian either but fortunately the worlds judge doesn't count only Christ can see my heart! Before we condemn we should love and lift up the fallen. Hate the sin love the sinner! We are all in this together.

    We are not in the position to judge only God has that title. Do I agree with everything no but remember we need to bring as many to Christ not see how many we can push away. In these times non Christians are looking towards us and are saying either hey their is something different about them or hey they are just like us backstabbing, fighting, jealous etc etc I have that now.

    May God Bless

    Jon
     
  4. post-it

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    eaglewings, you made an unsound argument, and a conclusion that was non sequitur. Overall, it was a waste of a lot of time writing. In the future, try to think logically. At a minimum, support your conclusions in the premises.
     
  5. Abiyah

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    Eaglewings --

    You come here and write, as your first post,
    such trash as this? In my circles, this is called
    lashon hara. Look that up on the Internet
     
  6. Jim1999

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    Thank you, Smokeeater,,,well done.

    Oops! I used to play in muck when I was a kiddie, but when I grew up and became a man, I put away the mud pies.

    Cheers in the Lord,

    Jim
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Well, since I was a member of Harvest Baptist Church during the time of Ollin Collins, I know a little bit about that situation. If the facts you presented in that case are like the other one's you presented, then I would take the whole post with a very LARGE grain of salt. I can promise you that Harvest did not help nor console Ollin Collins. Secondly the sex was consentual and NOT rape. It's easy to print lies and innuendos, but you should at least get your facts straight.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Franklin and Bibly Graham are the worst examples of Christianity, except for all the others ;)
     
  9. eaglewings

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    Smoke Eater I take my hat off to you just like a puff of smoke you are full of hot air and see only what you want to see.

    You conveniently twisted the truth and ignored the fact that Billy Graham is a liar and he did make disparaging remarks about the Jews and the New York Times reported the following:

    It seemed impossible, when H. R. Haldeman's White House diaries came out in 1994, that the Rev. Billy Graham could once have joined with President Richard M. Nixon in discussing the "total Jewish domination of the media." Could Mr. Graham, the great American evangelist, really have said the nation's problem lies with "satanic Jews," as Mr. Nixon's aide recorded?Mr. Graham's sterling reputation as a healer and bridge-builder was so at odds with Mr. Haldeman's account that Jewish groups paid little attention, especially because he denied the remarks so strongly."Those are not my words," Mr. Graham said in a public statement in May 1994. "I have never talked publicly or privately about the Jewish people, including conversations with President Nixon, except in the most positive terms."

    That was the end of the story, it seemed, until two weeks ago, when the tape of that 1972 conversation in the Oval Office was made public by the National Archives. Three decades after it was recorded, the North Carolina preacher's famous drawl is tinny but unmistakable on the tape, denigrating Jews in terms far stronger than the diary accounts."They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff," Mr. Graham said on the tape, after agreeing with Mr. Nixon that left-wing Jews dominate the news media. The Jewish "stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain," he continued, suggesting that if Mr. Nixon were re-elected, "then we might be able to do something."Finally, Mr. Graham said that Jews did not know his true feelings about them."I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know," he told Mr. Nixon, referring to A. M. Rosenthal, then the newspaper's executive editor. "And all — I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country. And I have no power, no way to handle them, but I would stand up if under proper circumstances."

    So if Billy Graham lied about his remarks about the Jews what else is he lying about?

    And since I did my homework so should you before you open your mouth. Why don't you check out the references and see all that has been stated about Billy Graham is true?

    [ October 14, 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: eaglewings ]
     
  10. Johnv

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    I believe that was not a news article, that was an editorial. Editorials are not reports, but opinions.
     
  11. eaglewings

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    Johnv my comment to you is check your facts first before you open your mouth because your belief is wrong.

    On March 17, 2002 The New York Times factualy reported BILLY GRAHAM RESPONDS TO LINGERING ANGER OVER 1972 REMARKS ON JEWS and stated that he lied as per the above quotes from it.

    As for Ned Graham the facts are as reported by By Karen L. Willoughby for WORLD - East Gates was established in 1989 by Ruth Graham, journalist David Aikman, Bible smuggler Doug Sutphen, and others. Ned Graham, then 33 years old, became president in 1991. Under his leadership, the organization has become financially viable.
    In 1997, the last year for which complete figures are available, East Gates took in $2.3 million. Nearly $1 million of that came from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, and thus indirectly from Mrs. Moxley and other BGEA donors. (BGEA has since decreased its funding; a BGEA source told WORLD that the organization gave $60,000 in 1998 and budgeted the same amount in 1999.)
    East Gates over the years has received most of its income from other organizations-some of which give generously because of the Graham name. The American Bible Society, another recipient of Mrs. Moxley's contributions, has given East Gates $825,000. The Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation gave $1 million in 1996. Both cite the Billy Graham connection as one reason for the sizeable grants.
    Mr. Graham's salary in 1998 was about $76,000, and he received a tax-free housing allowance of more than $36,000. No one has alleged financial impropriety, but many associates of Mr. Graham have expressed concern about his personal difficulties and their impact on East Gates.
    Carol Graham, in a Nov. 10, 1998, affidavit filed in court, accused her husband of infidelity, domestic violence, and drug and alcohol abuse. Ned and Carol Graham were then members of Grace Community Church in Auburn, Wash., where Mr. Graham had been an elder and associate pastor. Church elders met with him for two hours in mid-December 1998. They discussed not only the accusations in the divorce complaint but also Mr. Graham's rare church attendance during the preceding three years, according to Bruce Ker, chairman of the church's elder board.
    The elders prescribed a course of counsel and discipline aimed at reconciliation and accountability. Mr. Graham balked, claiming his wife had lied and the pastors had unfairly sided with her. Accusing the elders of using improper procedures, he left the church. The church subsequently stopped supporting East Gates (at $500 a month), revoked Mr. Graham's ministerial license, and told him to stop using the title "Rev." since he had never been ordained. (The divorce suit was settled in mediation; both sides agreed to have the case record sealed.)
    Mr. Graham chose to be interviewed by WORLD only through written questions and answers. Questioned regarding reports that he had undergone treatment for an alcohol-related condition, Mr. Graham wrote, "I took Board-approved time away in June of 1998."

    While Christianity Today reported Ned has not officially communicated with his donors about his personal difficulties, but a December East Gates fund-raising letter included a note from his father saying that "Ruth and I are proud of and grateful to God for our son Ned." East Gates has distributed 2 million Bibles to Christians in China, Billy Graham said, encouraging Christians to "back this unique and effective ministry."
    "Our family is in the best position to understand these issues, and Ned has our full confidence and support," Billy and Ruth Graham said in a letter published in Christianity Today.
     
  12. FearNot

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    Sir, I don't know what your beef is, but I sincerely hope you pray that your bitterness is removed.

    If they are so disrepitable, why is Franklin's son a pastor in a small mission church instead of traveling the country preaching at stadiums? I telll you why, because he is working hard to get his education at a reputable seminary and to work for God where he is called to minister. How do I know this? Because I go to the church he preaches at. The family is a God fearing, God loving family. I suggest you rid your self of attempts to discredit good people and focus on the log in your own eye.
     
  13. Mike McK

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    eaglewings,

    Please do not send me anymore childish and harrassing e-mails.

    I twisted nothing. Billy Graham has acknowledged what he said. He has apologized and, from all appearances, he is truly repentant.

    His sixty plus years of ministry to all races, cultures and ethnicities speak louder than one moment of bad judgement.

    End of story.

    Given your previous assertion that Graham is aged and decrepit with a list of illnesses, it would seem more than plausable, from your own previous argument, that it would be a bit unreasonable on your part to expect him to have total recall of memory of an event that happened more than thirty years ago.

    You came by this information by H.R. Haldeman. If Billy Graham is a liar, then what in the world is Haldeman?

    Again, Graham has been more than clear that he did not remember saying these things, and as we see above, that's completely understandable.

    He's never used this as an excuse to run away from his unfortunate part in this conversatin, whatever it may be, but has instead faced it head on. He has apologized and has been forgiven by a myriad of Jewish groups.

    If the offended parties and God have forgiven, then you have no right to hold any grudges.

    I and most others here are well aquainted with Dr. Graham's history, thank you.

    Given that you have slandered a brother in Christ (and me, by the way) who has forgotten more about ministry than you or I will ever know, maybe you should get yours straight.

    I did, remember?

    They were all opinion pieces.

    Not that the editorialists aren't entitled to their opinion, but they're hardly unbiased.

    You seem to have a lot of anger and the scathing and quite un-Christlike e-mail you sent me say that you have a lot of bitterness buikt up inside you for some reason.

    Jesus will take that away if you ask Him to.

    Praying for you,

    Mike

    [ October 14, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  14. Scott J

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    I am not a fan of the Grahams but Tex Marres is not to be trusted. He is a venomous distorter and accuser of the brethren... While we may question the Grahams' at times, it is clear what camp Tex is in.
     
  15. eaglewings

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    Good people are not hypocrites. They don't say one thing in public and another thingin private? They don't make disparaging remarks about God's people, the Jews. They don't stonewall their donors about their total compensation.

    Where was Franklin on September 11, 2002? In Alaska killing innocent animals!
     
  16. Mike McK

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    Then why don't you say the same things here that you said in your e-mail to me?

    They may is they're nothing more than sinners saved by grace.

    You seem to have this idea that Christians are expected to have this almost superhuman ability to not sin.

    That's not the way it works.

    We sin. We repent. We accept God's forgiveness and grace. We go on with our lives.

    We're still waiting for some proof on that front.

    They weren't innocent. They were Al Quida collaborators.

    He caught a moose making a pipe bomb. :eek:

    Franklin Graham is a hero!

    C'mon, you're really stretching now. Wat does this have to do with anything?

    Mike
     
  17. Johnv

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    Johnv my comment to you is check your facts first before you open your mouth because your belief is wrong.

    Whoa tiger, i think you have me confused with someone else. I hadn't made any posts attacking you.

    The fact that you seem to have jumped all over me like I was the plague certainly tells me that your two cents on this issue ain't worth a penny. Perhaps you should check your own facts over whom you're having a conversation with.
     
  18. Music Man

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    Matthew 7:3-5-"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Chris
     
  19. eaglewings

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    Ned Graham loses board members, the privilege of the term "Reverend," his wife of almost 20 years-and quits a financial watchdog association
    By Karen L. Willoughby http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/11-06-99/national_1.asp
    in Puyallup, Wash. - Thelma Moxley, 79, of Sunriver, Ore., is a faithful donor who says she gives to ministries "as to the Lord." The retired secretary, widow of a carpenter, says she carefully budgets to give all she can from her limited income to the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA), the American Bible Society, other groups, and her church.
    "I believe in Billy Graham's ministry, and the others," Mrs. Moxley said. "I trust they'll add the little I can give to what others give, so that together we can do more than any of us could do alone."
    Trust is the operative word. It's up to a ministry's board of directors to make sure the trust is deserved. To help such boards and ministry leaders keep faith with the Mrs. Moxleys of the Christian world-and to head off a threatened government crackdown-the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA) was formed 20 years ago. Member organizations voluntarily subscribe to seven "standards of responsible stewardship," including a 12-part fundraising standard.
    "By law, [a ministry's] board of directors is responsible to oversee management," said Brewster Kopp, president and chairman of Stewardship Group, an organization that aids Christian nonprofits. "There are many not-for-profit organizations where the board is not doing what it should."
    Does East Gates Ministries International fit that category? Within the last year it saw a string of board members and staff leave. The departures began soon after the wife of East Gates President Nelson E. "Ned" Graham, youngest son of Billy and Ruth Graham, sued her husband for divorce a year ago. Early this year, East Gates quietly resigned from the ECFA.
    "These are red flags," Mr. Kopp said.
    East Gates is located about an hour's drive southeast of Seattle, below the snow-covered glacial fields of Mount Rainier. Its post-office box address is Sumner; its street address is Puyallup. The organization underwrites the production and distribution of Bibles in China (2 million so far, according to Mr. Graham) in cooperation with the China Christian Council and Amity Printing Company. It has built structures for 20 Chinese churches, according to Ned Graham, or about five according to a former East Gates executive. It has helped Chinese pastors to receive training in Singapore, provided high-tech equipment to seminaries in China, and sent money to flood-damaged churches.
    East Gates was established in 1989 by Ruth Graham, journalist David Aikman, Bible smuggler Doug Sutphen, and others. Ned Graham, then 33 years old, became president in 1991. Under his leadership, the organization has become financially viable.
    In 1997, the last year for which complete figures are available, East Gates took in $2.3 million. Nearly $1 million of that came from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, and thus indirectly from Mrs. Moxley and other BGEA donors. (BGEA has since decreased its funding; a BGEA source told WORLD that the organization gave $60,000 in 1998 and budgeted the same amount in 1999.)
    East Gates over the years has received most of its income from other organizations-some of which give generously because of the Graham name. The American Bible Society, another recipient of Mrs. Moxley's contributions, has given East Gates $825,000. The Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation gave $1 million in 1996. Both cite the Billy Graham connection as one reason for the sizeable grants.
    Mr. Graham's salary in 1998 was about $76,000, and he received a tax-free housing allowance of more than $36,000. No one has alleged financial impropriety, but many associates of Mr. Graham have expressed concern about his personal difficulties and their impact on East Gates.
    Carol Graham, in a Nov. 10, 1998, affidavit filed in court, accused her husband of infidelity, domestic violence, and drug and alcohol abuse. Ned and Carol Graham were then members of Grace Community Church in Auburn, Wash., where Mr. Graham had been an elder and associate pastor. Church elders met with him for two hours in mid-December 1998. They discussed not only the accusations in the divorce complaint but also Mr. Graham's rare church attendance during the preceding three years, according to Bruce Ker, chairman of the church's elder board.
    The elders prescribed a course of counsel and discipline aimed at reconciliation and accountability. Mr. Graham balked, claiming his wife had lied and the pastors had unfairly sided with her. Accusing the elders of using improper procedures, he left the church. The church subsequently stopped supporting East Gates (at $500 a month), revoked Mr. Graham's ministerial license, and told him to stop using the title "Rev." since he had never been ordained. (The divorce suit was settled in mediation; both sides agreed to have the case record sealed.)
    Mr. Graham chose to be interviewed by WORLD only through written questions and answers. Questioned regarding reports that he had undergone treatment for an alcohol-related condition, Mr. Graham wrote, "I took Board-approved time away in June of 1998."
    In response to a question about alleged involvement with a woman who was not his wife, Mr. Graham wrote, "During our marriage and before the divorce I had never been alone in a woman's home or apartment and had never been alone in my home with any woman other than my wife. To directly answer your implied question-I was faithful to my wife for 18 years without exception." At the time of the divorce filing, Ned and Carol Graham had been married for 19 years and 2H months. They have two sons, ages 11 and 13.
    WORLD gave Mr. Graham an opportunity to amend his answer. An aide replied by email: "Please very carefully note that Mr. Graham's answers were factually correct."
    In response to a question about his current church affiliation, Mr. Graham responded, "I am attending another fellowship," without naming it. The bylaws of East Gates require church membership.
    When asked about his use of the title "Rev.," which is by tradition reserved for those who have been ordained, Mr. Graham wrote in September, "I never personally used the title Reverend and East Gates no longer uses the title Reverend in reference to me." But a 1997 letter he wrote to members of Congress is signed "Rev. Ned Graham." The East Gates website at least until mid-October included a photograph of Mr. Graham holding a Bible, with the photo captioned, "Rev. Ned Graham." (The site has since been changed; "President" replaced "Rev.")
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Eaglewings, since you continue this discussion why don't you address what you posted about Ollin Collins? Could it be because you really know nothing of the subject?
     

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