News: SARS, the fake and manufactured epidemic?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Helen, May 3, 2003.

  1. Helen

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    What is SARS? Well, no one really knows for sure...

    How high is the death rate? Well, it's a little hard to tell it from regular pneumonia or flu anyway, so....

    The people who are dying of SARS, what are the demographics? Are they the old, the very young, the otherwise healthy middles? Were there other problems before this? No one is telling...

    Take a look at this article and realize how vulnerable we all are to the panic hype:

    http://www.whatareweswallowing.freeserve.co.uk/coughandawe.htm

    [ May 22, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]
     
  2. Ben W

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    It is amazing to see what is going in in the epi centre China. People wearing masks, disinfecting whole streets. You really do wonder what is going on. :confused:
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Why would the Chinese Government want to scare the heck out of their own people and the rest of the world like this and single handedly destroy their own economy and bring instability to their country, where people don't even trust the government to protect them and are taking matters into their own hands? Maybe I am missing something here, but it seems to me that most Communists (even the ones here in America) want the people to be totally dependant on the government to take care of their every need that they would risk losing control of their people like this. Why would they seek to destroy their own eceonomy by making themselves the pariah of the world?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Helen,

    Do you really believe that China fabricated this disease of SARS? Or are you just presenting this article as a topic for our opinions?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. go2church

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    Should we inform those who have died that it was fake and manufactured?
     
  6. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Take a look at this article and realize how vulnerable we all are to the panic hype:&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    The article that you refer to did not give an author that I can see. Why not? Before placing any confidence in an article like that, I would like to know something about the qualifications of the author. It has all the earmarks of a crank publication. I wouldn't place any confidence in it at all. By and large, the information being given out by responsible authorities, about SARS, seems to be reliable and legitimate.
     
  7. Helen

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    Folks, I am very curious as to exactly WHAT is going on! SARS has no distinctive earmarks which set it apart from normal severe flu or types of pneumonia.

    Who is dying from it? The old and already sick? They die from flu and pneumonia as well.

    Is the combined death rate from flu and pneumonias in other years which exhibit the same symptoms any different or less than the death rate from SARS this year?

    Where are the statistics? Where is anything but the hype?

    Who's profiting from all this hype?

    If anyone has knowledge of any statistics regarding this outbreak, I would love to see them.

    No, I don't know who the author of the article is. But I think the points raised are valid and deserve investigation.
     
  8. UTEOTW

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    I have wondered about SARS.

    I'm not into conspiracy theory mode but I do wonder a bit why the attention on this particular outbreak.

    The cause has been identified as a coronavirus, a type of virus that typically causes pneumonia and colds (along with types of rhinovirus). So I am not sure what sets this apart from other respiratory outbreaks spread by similar viruses.

    Is this virus somehow worse than other similar viruses? I don't want it but I don't want viral pneumonia either.
     
  9. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Where are the statistics? Where is anything but the hype?

    Who's profiting from all this hype?

    If anyone has knowledge of any statistics regarding this outbreak, I would love to see them.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    "Hype" is not an accurate description for what is honest and straight reporting by dozens of different media organizations. There are plenty of statistics about the outbreak. Perhaps there could have been more open reporting by China, but there is no evidence that this disease is anything other than a serious new disease, as has been reporting. I think Helen was influenced by a report which amounts to junk science. Any reputable report would have had the authors name on it, at least. I note that the same report references other junk science reports about AIDS.
     
  10. Peter101

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    The author of the article mentioned by Helen seems to be Steven Ransom. His name is at the end of the article, rather than at the beginning. He has achieved some notoriety by writing a book claiming that AIDS is a vast conspiracy and does not really exist. So his claiming that SARS does not exist is consistent with his conspiracy minded ideas. As far as I can tell, he has few if any qualifications to be writing on medical topics.
     
  11. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;How high is the death rate? Well, it's a little hard to tell it from regular pneumonia or flu anyway, so....

    The people who are dying of SARS, what are the demographics? Are they the old, the very young, the otherwise healthy middles? Were there other problems before this? No one is telling...&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Actually someone is telling. All you have to do is look at the web sites of the Center for Disease Control and the World Health Organization to find much of the information you asked about. The death rate is more than 5 percent, which is many times higher than the death rate from flu. It is a close question whether China can stem this epidemic or not. If they cannot, millions of people will probably die from it.
     
  12. Helen

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    Peter, please link me to a website with the demographics. I would appreciate that.

    Also, I have a son who survived sudden onset viral pneumonia, although a week after the onset it attacked cranial nerves and left him profoundly retarded and the official diagnosis of the second part of the illness became 'encephalitis'.

    MOST people die from sudden onset viral pneumonia. Jim Hensen of the Muppets did, in about 48 hours I think. And yet have you ever heard of this disease which is far more deadly than SARS?

    Is SARS simply another name for this? If so, then it has lost its potency, not gained it! I don't think it is as bad as sudden onset viral pneumonia.

    Who is profiting? Did you read the article questioning it all? The pharmaceutical companies without a doubt!

    Yes, I'm willing to question this.

    What makes this virus different? What even makes it identifiable as a unique virus unto itself and not simply one of the many which result in viral pneumonia or flu?

    There are a LOT of questions which are not being answered about this outbreak.
     
  13. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Who is profiting? Did you read the article questioning it all? The pharmaceutical companies without a doubt!&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Yes, I read the article and I think it is a worthless article by a fellow who has a track record of being wrong and who is not qualified to write about medical topics. Sure the pharmaceutical companies may profit from any disease. But it is not clear at all that they will profit from this one, since it may turn out that no drug can cure it. But even if they do profit from it, that does not prove that the disease is a hoax or "manufactured" as you say. The profit motive is present in almost all phases of life, and the mere existence of profit or potential profit does not prove that something does or does not exist. You asked for more information about the disease. There is a great deal of it on the web sites that I mentioned of the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control. It is without doubt that this is a new and deadly disease. Do some research on the Internet and most of your questions will be answered.
     
  14. Helen

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    You made the claim the answers to my questions are on the net. Please verify that, Peter. Don't ask me to do your homework for you. You said the answers to the demographic questions were there. Please produce them.

    If you don't, I will presume that you really don't have access to the answers.
     
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Helen,

    It seems to me that you avoided answering my questions, which I think are very good questions. Perhaps, you overlooked them, so I will re-post them:

    Why would the Chinese Government want to scare the heck out of their own people and the rest of the world like this and single handedly destroy their own economy and bring instability to their country, where people don't even trust the government to protect them and are taking matters into their own hands? Maybe I am missing something here, but it seems to me that most Communists (even the ones here in America) want the people to be totally dependant on the government to take care of their every need that they would risk losing control of their people like this. Why would they seek to destroy their own eceonomy by making themselves the pariah of the world?

    Joseph Botwinick [​IMG]
     
  16. Helen

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    Joseph, I don't have answers to your questions. I simply am beginning to wonder if what we see in the news isn't just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I know China did NOT report much of it until forced to as it spread. But flu spreads. I remember Hong Kong flu... This also started in China. Did they simply identify it as another flu strain at the beginning? Is this simply another nasty flu that is spreading? Please note it is only being identify by symptoms (which are universal to flu and pneumonia), not by virus. That is interesting.

    Is China really responsible for the reaction to this outbreak, or is the 'pariah' bit coming as a result of press coverage and profiteering?

    I'm getting to be downright skeptical in my old age, aren't I?

    I'm not saying I KNOW anything. I'm saying, instead, that there are a ton of questions people have about this SARS thing which are not being answered.

    I can understand panic, actually. I can understand quarantining (which they should for AIDS!), and I can understand masks and everything else. Of course people are going to try to protect themselves! I question none of this. What I am curious about are some of the questions that article brings up (and I don't care who wrote it! Questions are not bad things!).

    Why is this being singled out from even more deadly forms of flu and such? Who, really, is dying, in terms of age and previous medical conditions? Are there profits being made? If so, by whom?
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    So, Helen, who do you think fabricated this disease that is killing people all over the world? The press? The pharmeceutical companies? The Chinese Government? Or, perhaps, Oliver Stone? It just doesn't make sense.

    I think the new disease is getting so much press because it is new, it is killing those who contract it, and there doesn't seem to be any way to cure it. It is also spreading worldwide. AIDS has been around for decades, and still has no cure. But its effects have been contained somewhat. The common flu? I get it all the time. It has been contained somewhat also.

    I did a search on Steve Ransom. I don't know, he kinda looks like a fruitcake to me. But hey, I live in Arkansas. Most people in California do seem like fruitcakes to me... [​IMG]

    Joseph Botwinick [​IMG]
     
  18. Helen

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    Joseph, I don't think the disease is fabricated. Not at all. Please don't misunderstand me!

    I think the hype is fabricated, or may be. The panic is, I bet, being aided and abetted by profiteers.

    There are many things which are killing people all over the world. And by the way, AIDS has in NO way been 'contained'! It is simply been muted in the press until they want funding. It is not the fad disease now.

    Allow me also to say that what you are referring to as 'common flu' that you get 'all the time' is NOT flu! I think you are mistaking stomach upsets for flu. Stomach and intestinal upsets are often as simple as minor cases of food poisoning.

    I have had real flu twice in my life. It hits with suddenness and severity that leaves you absolutely as weak and helpless as a newborn. Getting up and going to the bathroom requires, literally, every ounce of energy in your body. It lasts a week or two at the minimum and can easily become pneumonia if you do not get enough rest and liquids and can become pneumonia anyway in some. My 'short' case was two weeks down about 20 years ago. My 'long' case resulted in 'walking pneumonia' and from the onset of the flu itself (May 1, 1987 -- the day we moved into this house and I ended up lying on the floor while the movers moved things in around me!) to my ability to get up and run my own house again was almost two months -- because I tried to get up and work too early; there were boxes to be unpacked and such!

    THAT is flu. A day down with an upset stomach is NOT flu. Influenza is a killer and the viruses involved can mutate like crazy, which is why they can only try to predict which flu will hit in any which season and then prepare a vaccine for it.

    And you know where they look to find out which flu will be worst in any given season? The Orient! They seem to get it before the West.

    So we base our predictions on what is happening there.

    And I don't care if Ransom is from Mars and dropped out of school in kindergarten. He is making some solid points and asking some good questions.

    Flu kills. It kills primarily the older, the already sick, and the very young.

    Is SARS simply another strain of flu?
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    The title of the thread is: SARS, the fake and maufactured epidemic. I think I see the confusion now. So sorry.

    I think the hype is fabricated, or may be. The panic is, I bet, being aided and abetted by profiteers.[/QUOTE]

    Anything could be aided and abetted by profiteers. Lehaye and Lyndsey tell us the world is coming to an end and they sell their books and movies, etc...

    Creationist YECs tell us to fear the evolutionists and sell their books, videos, Bible Studies, ect...

    Democrats tell us that Republicans are gonna starve our children and sell their candidate.

    However, just because there is panic or fear involved, does not make it a fraud or a scandal. My preacher told me once that without Jesus, I would go to Hell, and I became a Christian.

    There are many things which are killing people all over the world. And by the way, AIDS has in NO way been 'contained'![/QUOTE]

    I did not say the disease itself had been contained. Through medicines, its effects have been contained. People are living longer and with less pain today.

    Allow me also to say that what you are referring to as 'common flu' that you get 'all the time' is NOT flu! I think you are mistaking stomach upsets for flu. Stomach and intestinal upsets are often as simple as minor cases of food poisoning.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't realize you were a medical doctor. Where di you go to medical school? My doctor went to UAMS.

    I have had real flu twice in my life. It hits with suddenness and severity that leaves you absolutely as weak and helpless as a newborn. Getting up and going to the bathroom requires, literally, every ounce of energy in your body. It lasts a week or two at the minimum and can easily become pneumonia if you do not get enough rest and liquids and can become pneumonia anyway in some. My 'short' case was two weeks down about 20 years ago. My 'long' case resulted in 'walking pneumonia' and from the onset of the flu itself (May 1, 1987 -- the day we moved into this house and I ended up lying on the floor while the movers moved things in around me!) to my ability to get up and run my own house again was almost two months -- because I tried to get up and work too early; there were boxes to be unpacked and such![/QUOTE]

    And yet, you did survive. Amazing.

    And you know where they look to find out which flu will be worst in any given season? The Orient! They seem to get it before the West. [/QUOTE]

    Again, can you possibly give me a link to a credible source where you learned this? Please, no Oliver Stone links.

    And I don't care if Ransom is from Mars and dropped out of school in kindergarten. He is making some solid points and asking some good questions.[/QUOTE]

    Did he drop out in Kindergarten? OK, you say he makes some good and solid points. What are they? I didn't really see any. BTW, are you two friends by any chance? I notice that he is also a person who writes about YEC, and I know that seems to be your thing. So I am wondering if there is a reason you are promoting and defending this guys silliness so ardently.

    Flu kills. It kills primarily the older, the already sick, and the very young.

    Is SARS simply another strain of flu?
    [/QUOTE]

    I don't know. Are there any Medical Doctors out there that can answer Helen's questions?

    Joseph Botwinick [​IMG]
     
  20. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;And I don't care if Ransom is from Mars and dropped out of school in kindergarten. He is making some solid points and asking some good questions.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    I don't think he is doing anything but spreading false information. That is obvious or should be obvious by the content of his material. But the fact that he apparently has no educational qualifications to discuss medical topics just makes it easier to categorize him. He is a fruitcake no doubt, and I am surprised that with your vast and unsurpassed knowledge of science and medicine, you can't see that. Even the lurid graphics on his site are more the mark of a crank rather than a person of good judgment.
     

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