NIV question

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Phillip, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    As I've mentioned I have been attending a church with my daughters family (only temporarily--don't tell me I need to leave I have special circumstances).

    The pastor is heavily KJVO and he keeps quoting that the NIV has verses that say a person is "being" saved and not written as a single act that occured in the past. Does anybody know what scriptures he is referring to?

    He never mentions the verses, but calls the NIV the Non-Inspired Version. I'm working on my daughter to see the truth and that is one she brings up because her pastor brings it up and I have not been able to answer her question because I have no idea where the pastor is getting his information from (well I do, most of its from Ripplinger--but, I'm not reading through Ripplinger's garbage to determine where he comes up with this scripture.)

    Apparently, if he uses it so often someone here ought to know what verse or chapter he is referring to between the KJV and the NIV.
     
  2. Amy.G

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  3. JesusFan

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    problem with his statement on the Niv though is that its "just" as inspired as ole KJV, as actually what was/is inspired by god directly were the original manuscripts, and don't think either versions have those in them!
     
  4. InTheLight

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    I love biblegateway.com. You can look at several versions of the same verse on the same page by using the Add Parallel feature:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+1:18&version=NIV;NKJV;KJV;ESV


    You can see that only the KJV uses the phrase "which are saved" vs. all the other versions which say, "who are being saved." The phrase is almost always translated as being in the future tense or else as a conditional phrase.

    Look up 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor. 3:15, 1 Cor. 5:5, Rom 5:9, Rom 5:10, and the famous Rom. 10:13 and you will see this. I'm sure there are dozens of others. I'd say the KJV translators got it wrong. Good luck selling that to the pastor.

    Finally, it it interesting that the KJV uses the word "which" instead of "who" i.e. 'but unto us WHICH are saved'.....why not say, 'but unto us WHO are saved'. This indicates to me a sloppy translation.
     
  5. annsni

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    I find a great resource for looking at some of these issues that are brought up is www.kjv-only.com

    I do not know the sense of the original language but what I read in the modern versions is not that being saved is a process but that it is speaking of the course of many being saved. So it's like this:

    Many are going to hell.
    Some are going to heaven.

    Are they all in the process (yes) and is going to hell an over and over thing? No. So they are going to hell once but MANY are going there.

    In the same way, because of the word of the cross, many have been saved, are being saved and many will be saved in the future. The KJV has the sense of those who are saved are saved by the word of the cross. The modern versions have the sense that many are being saved - many individually are saved - through the word of the cross.

    My question would be what sense does the original language have.
     
  6. preachinjesus

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    Without specific citations I would venture to guess that he is simply parrotting something he's heard from other people before. If you were able to trace the idea it would probably be some uninformed, off the cuff remark that seeks to debase the NIV for no good reason.

    The truth is that we are all being saved. Salvation is not accomplished, finalized, until the eschaton.

    Salvation has several components and is an umbrella term. Our justification is a punctilliar sealed action that leads to our santification. As we grow (hopefully) in our sanctification it leads to our glorification. Notice the first and last aspects are not under our control, though the second is.

    We are fully saved (ontologically and economically) once our glorification is acheived. Now this doesn't leave us in limbo..or purgatory...rather it allows us to see where we are in the plan of God. Do you think God can't accomplish His plan?

    So to your pastor's point he is correct, the NIV does accurately communicate the nature of salvation in its translation...and this is to its benefit. But so does the KJV. He's just being snarky and utilizing bad theology on top of bad argumentation to make a bad point.

    I'd complete agree with the last comment there. He's being a jerk from the pulpit. I'd call him on it too. Go to his office and confront him about it. Heck I'd drive out there and do it myself if I had the time. I don't like theological toughguys who make their bones by degrading God's work.

    The "Non-Inspired Version" comment is symptomatic of his overall approach. Shows his true colors. He has no grounds for this statement and I'd bet money if he's backed into a corner by a theologian who knows the fallacies of his argument he'd crumble or just get angry.

    The reality is the NIV is a good translation that accurately communicates the same terms as the KJV. I would ask for specific verses and passages. Though the translation philosophy is different between the two (because 150 years of scholarship changes our approach) the ends are the same...a faithful translation.

    So my encouragement is to ask him for specific instances and citations and go through them. You'll probably find he's full of crap...which he is.
     
  7. jbh28

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    As preachinjesus mentioned, it can be referring to our total salvation. We are not in heaven yet. We are not glorified. We are saved(justification), being saved (sanctification) and will be saved (glorification).

    The other way it can be used is to refer to multiple people being saved. Groups of people are not saved all at once. Some were saved yesterday, some are saved today, some will be saved tomorrow. The people are being saved. This is found in Acts 2:47 where day by day people were being saved.
     
  8. Amy.G

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    I mentioned this in SS one day (at the church I recently left) about "are saved, being saved and will be saved", and one of the ladies in the class jumped on me saying that was just WRONG! I thought her eyeballs were going to pop. :laugh:
    I told her that's what the bible says, but she had her mind made up.
     
  9. Deacon

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    I recently purchased a brand-spanking-new 2011 Newly-Inspired-Version Study Bible for a new Christian I was discipling.

    Personally I don't use the version myself but think it fit him just right.

    Yep, many versions say we are "being saved".

    Rob
     
    #9 Deacon, Dec 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
  10. Phillip

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    This is the way I read it. Being saved does indicate that the person is "being" saved by God because he will go to heaven so God is, in effect, holding him in His hands and the person is "being saved". Maybe it is not the greatest way to translate the Greek, but it does not make it a bad verse from the point of theology, if read with this in mind. I know there are other scriptures in the NIV that are probably translated better and the Bible does not contradict itself.

    I could say the same thing that God is "washing away my sins" even though I was saved on a particular date.

    Thank you for your post.
     
  11. Phillip

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    I also want to thank you for your post. The big problem is that he is so egotistical he would kick anybody who disagrees with this subject out of the church. He does sometimes have business meetings, but people are expected to agree with his statement and I have heard him name people who he wants off the roles because they are "shacking up" (in his words) or some other sin which he feels free to pick and choose without rhyme or reason. Even the church emblem has a cross with KJB on one side and 1611 on the other side.

    He is really full of urban legends. For instance, Santa Claus comes from the description in Revelation about Jesus walking among the candle-sticks and he uses that to keep his flock from talking about Santa Claus to their children. I remember as a child my parents saying my presents were from Santa Claus, but I don't ever remember a time when I believed that Santa Claus was a real person.

    To me he was just like any other fairy tale. My parents would also, before we opened our presents, read the Christmas story from the Bible every single year so that we always knew that we were worshipping God and Jesus' birthday whether or not the date was correct. This pastor claims Jesus was born in October. I don't know where he gets that one. Last week he actually took the video tapes about Tim the tool man who played in a comedy about him being Santa Claus and he threw them on the floor in the service and stomped on them saying they were straight from hell. But, he's so fundamental he doesn't believe in going to a "movie house" again as he calls it.

    I am staying there to watch out for my grandchildren because my kids have bought into his cult and I am concerned about the discipline he uses. I literally saw him tell a lady to whip her three year old because she opened the door to the sound room and she needed to teach the girl not to do it and he stood there and watched to make sure the girl was spanked in front of other church members. He never seems to quote the scripture that tells you not to frustrate your children; he's only found the verses regarding the rod.

    His tactic is primarily to read one verse all through the Bible to make his point and every time he reads from the OT law in many cases as if we are still supposed to obey a particular item that he would call a liberal. He says all SBC churches are liberal, then he asked me because he knew I came from SBC what they actually preached on. He didn't even know what they were preaching and he was calling them the Philistein (SP?) churches. So, his response is always, I preach the truth and if you can't handle it you know where the door is. When I do leave to go to a decent church I will either have a talk with him or put it on paper so he can't misquote what I say. By the way the KJV was edited 7 times since 1611 making it the perfect words and punctuation from God because 7 is God's perfect number and there is a Bible verse that says something to the effect that if it comes from a King it is good, so the KJB is perfect. We had visitors last week who carried NIV study Bibles to church, they never came back after he quoted that since it came from God's perfect Bible the KJB that it is correct. Sorry about the long post, but I do get frustrated at my kids for the theology they are putting in my grandkids minds. They asked me not to tell them that I used other Bibles until they were 18. This has never stopped me from having all sorts of translations and reading them in front of the kids. But, if I want to continue seeing them I cannot read from a MV Bible; that is how brain washed they are.
     
  12. Phillip

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    I was taking my grandson to an air and space museum in a different city and he saw John 3:16 on the back of a truck and quoted it to me. I then asked him to tell me exactly what each line means, he couldn't. He could not understand the language and he is a bright kid who has just learned to read.
     
  13. Jerome

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    Except that the notes of these MV Study Bibles explicity identify it as a "process":

    Cambridge: "Neither participle implies that the end of the process is determined: both describe actual conditions which are open to alteration."

    John MacArthur: "in the process of salvation"

    Ignatius Catholic: "Paul's Greek depicts this as an unfolding process and implies that the final verdict of God's judgment is still open."
     
  14. annsni

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    Well, I don't agree that God's final verdict of God's judgment and is still open. I do agree that the whole of salvation is a process but I don't think that is what this particular verse is saying. I think instead that we are not speaking of just individuals being saved but a whole of a group being saved. So the Gospel is the power to be saving those who will be saved. People are still being saved and people will still be saved in the future. But Joe HAS been saved (although his final state will not be finished until he is glorified - but he WILL be glorified and his salvation is certainly secure!)
     
  15. JesusFan

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    Would say that the process will be complete when we are glorified and with Christ, but also that the final state/outcome has already been determined/assured by God!
     
  16. Deacon

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    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    1 Corinthians 1:18 (NIV)

    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    1 Corinthians 1:18 (AV 1873)

    *****************************

    For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
    2 Corinthians 2:15 (NIV)

    For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
    2 Corinthians 2:15 (AV 1873)

    *****************************


    I taught through the beginning of 1 Corinthians not too long ago and brought this verse to the group's attention.

    I'd guess the elder is not open to learning from you, sad isn't it.

    In any case: notice how Paul contrasts "those who are perishing" and "us who are being saved".

    It's there in the AV just poorly translated and therefore a bit obscure.

    Even without knowing Greek you can see the resemblance of the construction of the verbs if you look in an interlinear bible.

    The construction demands either :
    1) "are being saved" and "are perishing"
    Or
    2) "are saved" and "are perished".

    Rob
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

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