No Faith until Salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Mar 25, 2006.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    I keep hearing there is no faith until you have salvation, even in our churches and in other denominations. How can you come to God unless you believe there is a God?

    Romans, chapter 12


    "3": For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. :confused:
     
  2. Helen

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    Amen. Thank you.
     
  3. Andy T.

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    Brother Bob, I'm not sure what your point is - can you elaborate a little?
     
  4. Me4Him

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    God won't attempt to save a person who denies God exist, if you "refuse" (reject the faith) to believe "God is".


    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God

    must believe that he is,
    (exist)
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    My point is that to say there is no faith until you are a Christian is wrong, and I hear it preached now in some churches. Now the faith delivered unto the saints is another thing.
     
  6. whatever

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    You're using different definitions of the word faith there.

    As for 'trust', well of course everybody trusts in something. Some trust in the idea that there is no God. Some trust in the idea that there is a God and that they are good enough to be accepted by that God. Everybody has faith in something. Those whose faith is in Christ alone are Christians, and no one who has faith in Christ alone is not yet a Christian.

    So what are you getting at?

    And what's this about God giving each person a measure of faith? How is that fair? Shouldn't He give to everyone the same?
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    It didn't say trust, it said measure of faith and that is what the woman who had the issue of blood had that moved out and put her faith into action. When she put it to action her faith grew with the additions I mention below:


    1 Corinthians, chapter 12


    "4": Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

    "5": And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

    "6": And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

    "7": But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    "8": For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

    "9": To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    "10": To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues

    "3": For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith


    Romans, chapter 1

    "17": For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith


    Romans, chapter 3
    "30": Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    The measure of faith to all men but when you believe and receive a new birth you will receive the faith once delivered unto the saints. Some have a stronger faith than others. I say every how much knowledge you have is ever how much faith you have.


    2 Peter, chapter 1

    These additions to faith show where you do have something to do with your election "5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

    "6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

    "7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    "8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    "9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    "10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    This is only a small part of faith, we could go on for a very long time but I am sure you have already read the differences of faith. Without faith you cannot please God. How could you come to God without pleasing Him. .

    [ March 25, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  8. Salamander

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    The measure of faith is the seed of faith given to every man. Men will reject God and deny Him, that is what makes them foolish considering the wonder of creation. It actually takes more to deny God than to believe in God, bnecause that seed of the measure of faith is then smothered by the audacity to deny that life began beyond nature, due to the fact that nature had to begin also.

    Every man has the responsibility to excersize that measure of faith, and he will in some sort to exert his beliefs in any chosen direction: either he will seek the face of God after the convicting of his heart for sin according to the Word of God, or else he will seek truth in religion. Evolution is a theory, yet a religion, just as atheism is also a religion.

    I've had Calvinists make the same arguement that Romans 12:3 isn't saying that "every man" means EVERY MAN, but that is the lunacy of Calvinism. :eek: [​IMG]
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    Well said (Salamander)
     
  10. whatever

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    Brother Bob,

    I obviously still have no idea what you are getting at. Faith that saves is faith that trusts what Christ has done. If that isn't the kind of faith you are talking about then never mind, and may God bless you.
     
  11. Calvibaptist

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    You guys are amazing. Especially you Helen. You talk about context over and over and throw out entire verses as relating to us because, "Jesus was talking specifically to His disciples." Then when someone quotes a verse that is directed to believers in the city of Rome and applies it to every single individual (believer and unbeliever, alike), you say, "Amen."

    Romans 12 is written to believers who have the Holy Spirit. Each one of them has received a measure of faith and is, therefore, to be humble. Notice that Paul says "to every man that is AMONG YOU." This verse has nothing to do with those outside the family of God.
     
  12. Tom Butler

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    The Reformed view is that regeneration precedes faith, which precedes salvation. Regeneration and salvation are not the same.
     
  13. Calvibaptist

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    Now, here is my take on the whole faith thing. Everyone has some form of faith. We all get in our cars every day believing that we will make it to work safely. We all believe in something.

    The faith that embraces the gospel is not natural. It is supernatural.

    2 Corinthians 4:3 - But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

    Those who are perishing don't perceive and embrace the gospel.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 - whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    They don't believe (have no faith in it) because they god of this age (Satan) has blinded them.

    2 Corinthians 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake.

    This is why the preaching of the gospel of Jesus is so important and not just personal testimonies and talking about ourselves.

    2 Corinthians 4:6 - For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    When we preach the gospel, God does a supernatural work (just like at the original creation) to shine in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge (a long phrase for creating faith in our hearts) of His glory.

    This is the teaching of Scripture. Those without Christ do not have the faith to believe in Him and, therefore, cannot please God. BTW, Hebrews 11:4 (believing that He is and that He is the rewarder) is not talking about the same kind of believing of facts that demons do. It is faith that is described in the rest of Hebrews 11.
     
  14. Calvibaptist

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    Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

    Paul himself limits the "everyone" by the modifying phrase "who is among you." If he had said "everyone who is in Italy" it would not have meant every person who ever lived either. It would have meant every person who was in Italy. Here it means every person who is in the church. That would limit it to believers. Therefore, the "each one" at the end of the verse is the same group.
     
  15. Hope of Glory

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    "Faith" is a noun; "believe" is a verb. "What must I do to be saved?" "Believe (event) on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." An unsaved person cannot be faithful.
     
  16. Salamander

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    Sure, and no one has ever read the Bible and been saved either that wasn't already in the family of God??? :rolleyes:

    I wonder of there were ever any among the household of faith that weren't saved? :rolleyes:

    I wonder if there weren't any men AMONG those at Rome who had never been saved before?? :rolleyes:

    The verse is an admonition to believers, and the other edge of that two-edged sword is to convince all that are ungodly of their ungodly deeds in that they might believe,repent, and be saved.

    I wonder why it is that so many Calvinists refuse that the Word of God is a two-edges sword??
     
  17. Calvibaptist

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    Salamander, did I say any of those questions you asked? I said that it was written to believers talking about believers.

    Specifically, this verse introduces how believers are to operate within the body of Christ. It is not at all talking about unbelievers having faith. It is talking about each believer. The words in this verse are clear - every man AMONG YOU.

    Paul was not writing to the entire city of Rome. He was writing to "all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints."

    BTW, I am going to add Romans 1:7 to my list of "all" phrases that are limited by context. He is writing to all those who are beloved by God, called saints. So, when he tells them that each of them are to be humble because God has given each of them a measure of faith, he is NOT saying every human that has ever lived has that measure of faith.

    I believe that unbelievers read the word of God, and don't see it with the eyes of faith unless God shines in their hearts to see the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ. Until then, they are blinded.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Romans, chapter 1

    16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Romans, chapter 12

    3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you , not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think ; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    4: For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
    5: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
    6: Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

    Different proportions apparently.

    What Bible are you using, seems we are using different Bibles? The KJV says : every (man) the measure of faith, and Paul says what he had preached to the Jews and the Greek he now was preaching unto them.

    [ March 25, 2006, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  19. OldRegular

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    You ask a very pertinent question: How can you come to God unless you believe there is a God? You can't.

    However, what does Scripture tell us about the ability of the natural man, those who are unsaved, those who are perishing, to believe in God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    Note in particular the contrast in 1 Corinthians 1:18 between those that perish, the unregenerate man, and those who are saved.
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    OldRegular:
    There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. What about those that are not in Christ Jesus?
    Don't you believe that there is a spirit in man that is teaching him he is lost?

    Romans, chapter 7

    12": Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    "13": Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    "14": For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    "15": For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    "16": If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    "17": Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    "18": For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

    "19": For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

    "20": Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    "21": I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

    "22": For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


    2 Corinthians, chapter 4
    "16": For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


    Job, chapter 32

    "7": I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.

    "8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding .


    Titus, chapter 2
    "11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    "12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    "13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    "14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
     

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