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Featured No good works.....no Heaven?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Apr 30, 2013.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :applause::thumbsup::applause: Well said.

    from the sermon found in volume 20-
    Christ is gained when we get an interest in him and his benefits,
    when God hath called us to the fellowship of his Son, 1 Cor. i. 9, or,
    in another place, /ieVo%ot Xpia-Tov, Heb. iii. 14, ' We are made partakers
    of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the
    end/     The ungodly have no part in him, but believers have. The
    apostle had already won Christ, but he would more and more win,
    and be more nearly conjoined to him.     That I may win Christ, is



    VEIL 8.] SERMONS UPON PHILIPPIANS III. 37

    that I may get a larger portion in him, or more full enjoyment of
    him.
     
    #21 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Those who die shortly after salvation have not had time to do great works - but their heart change signifies a change in allegiance and this person, had they continued in life, would have done the works that God had prepared for him.

    To me, works is like breathing. Breathing does not equal life but it is a sign of life. We breathe because we are alive. We can make a corpse "breathe" but that breathing is artificial and not stemming from a life inside the body. As believers, we have a new life and as such, God prepares works for us and we do them because we have an internal need to do it - not an outside need (grace in the former, law in the latter).

    For example, shortly after our big blizzard, my 12 year old son and I were driving down the road and saw an elderly lady trying to shovel the ice at the bottom of her driveway. I drove by but could NOT drive any farther - so we turned around, parked the car and got out. We went to help her. I seriously would have had to fight myself to continue on my errands without stopping - the pull was so great. I ended up there for about 45 minutes speaking to this woman, helping her with her driveway and finding out what a need was that she had (she had no more ice melt and it was hard to get right now). When my son and I left, we prayed that we would be able to find ice melt at Target that we could bring and drop off to her - and guess what? There was ONE container of ice melt on the clearance rack!! So we grabbed it and I had my son run it up to her porch and just leave it next to the step. :) She probably knew who dropped it off but we didn't stay for accolades. We just had fun doing the "random act of kindness" and it opened doors to teach my son about the Spirit's prompting and acting on it.

    So works are a sign of life - but it does not cause life.
     
    #22 annsni, May 1, 2013
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    saturneptune;


    This is a serious question for one who has been recently called a part of the group being [tools of Satan:laugh:]...by the "pastor of icabod baptist church:thumbsup:

    No one should desire to be what many have described as a fire sale christian.

    like this;
    You and DHk and others who minister to the sick and elderly have a great opportunity and sober responsibilty to be able to minister to such persons.
    Maybe some who were religious all their lives, but never really lived a holy life feeding on the word and serving the Lord.

    Being saved near the end, or on the death bed itself is also to God's glory.

    All sinners are terminally ill. they do not have to be in the nursing home or death bed to be close to leaving their body. Only those who are serious about working out their salvation have any scriptural grounds for assurance of salvation.

    In the OP I stated this sermon was not really dealing with special cases.
    all such are under God's control anyhow. there will be a full spectrum and every conceivable type of person saved.

    The concern of Thomas Manton and any godly person should be complete obedience to all known commands from God's law word. Not that we could "do the minimum" in our daily life, but that we would excel by God's grace in faithful service.:thumbsup:



    the phrase you mentioned used here is speaking of believers who through remaining corruption, pride of life, and sinful thoughts and actions did religious works , that were not in The way of Holiness

    Loss of some degree of reward , not salvation is what happens to them.We do not want to be like that;

    8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
     
    #23 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    great thought and illustration ANNSNI:applause::applause:
     
    #24 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  5. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Great analogy. Do I have your permission to use it?
     
    #25 Crabtownboy, May 1, 2013
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK


    I disagree with you here DHK[what a surprise:thumbsup:] It has everything to do with salvation.Yes the verse is used of spiritual gifts,but spiritual gifts come from.......The Spirit of God who indwells christians.

    Those saved and having ...The Spirit.Romans 8:9

    Sadly this is very true and I am in complete agreement with you.Nominal christians are rejected in mT.7

    However the verse is speaking of no man can say Jesus is Lord [savingly] with a God given faith...except by the Spirit. It is not speaking of a shallow mouthing of the words...but a heart felt confession of faith.

    I am glad when I see you trying to speak truth to some of the catholics in the other denomination forum.

    I do not think i am taking it out of context as I just posted.

    Thankfully we agree on all this.:thumbsup:

    I think it is totally true,as in total depravity:applause: men will seek vain religion, men will seek another jesus, another gospel, by another spirit,

    But no one seeks God on God's terms resulting in salvation, not one. God seeks out......His sheep-

    9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost

    11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out..

    That is what I see the bible teaching.God seeks out the sheep, not goats...
    man does not seek God....God seeks man. Jesus sought out and died for the seed of Abraham......not the seed of Adam...
    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    see pt2
     
    #26 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt2
    Let's see what the Scriptures say:
    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Yes...
    .

    Agreed and correct....so you grant the premise you just stated...lol

    The scope goes from Israel to the whole world Jn3;16.....when Jesus came into the world...he did not light up all who died in the OT. That is just fictious and magical thinking, not scriptural. How was the incarnation...light...to Goliath?

    Agreed...as well as the God given conscience. This is not any contention.

    This again is dealing with the scope of what theologians refer to as the general call , different from what is spoken of as the effectual call.


    I do not agree as paul from chapter 1 all the way to this point makes the point that man is totally condemned;
    I find this outline by WR.Downing to be most helpful here;
    A. CONDEMNATION (1:18–3:20)
    Gospel righteousness absolutely needed by man and unattainable. Every approach that man might attempt is utterly cut off, for it is “by faith from start to finish.”1 Sinful humanity is found to be:
    ETHICALLY Condemned. (1:18)
    INTELLECTUALLY Condemned. (1:19–20)
    HISTORICALLY Condemned. (1:21)
    RELIGIOUSLY Condemned. (1:21–25)
    MORALLY Condemned. (1:26–31)
    WILLFULLY Condemned. (1:32)
    RACIALLY Condemned. (2: 1–3:9)
    UNIVERSALLY Condemned. (3:9–12)
    TOTALLY Condemned. (3:13–18)
    LEGALLY Condemned. (3:19–20)
    The analysis is four–fold:
    1. The Moral History of Human Depravity (1:18–32)
    a) Man’s Responsibility to God (1:18–20)
    (1)SinIsDeliberate (1:18)
    (2)SinIsInexcusable (1:20)
    b) Man’s Rejection of God (1:21–23)
    (1) Sin Is Theological (1:21–23)
    (2) Sin Is Judgmental (1:21–23)
    c) Man’s Reprobation by God (1:24–32)
    (1) Immorality and Idolatry (1: 24–25)
    (2) Immorality—Homosexuality (1: 26–27)
    (3) Immorality—Human Depravity (1: 28–32)
    2. A Logical Essay on Human Depravity (2:1–3:9)
    a) The Jew and Divine Judgment (2:1–16)
    (1) The Judgment Of God Is According To Truth (2:2)
    (2) The Judgment Of God Is Universal (2:3)
    (3) The Judgment Of God Is Righteous (2:5)
    (4) The Judgment of God is according to Works (2:6)
    (5) The Judgment of God is without Respect of Persons (2:11)
    (6) The Judgment of God is According to the Gospel (2:16)
    b) The Jew and a Definite Revelation (2:17–29)
    a)BeingaJew–ASpiritualPride (2:17)
    b) Jewish Claimsto Privilege (2:17–18)
    c) Jewish Claimsto Superiority (2:19–20)
    c) Jewish Claims to Superiority Refuted (2:21–22)
    1 ejk pivstew" eij" pivstin. ejk (gen.) denotes the source, and eij" (acc.) the extent of the action.
    2
    b) Jewish Claims to Privilege Refuted (2:23–24)
    a) Being a Jew–A Spiritual Principle (2:25–29)
    c) The Jew and a Distinct Advantage (3:1–8)
    (1) The First Objection and Answer (3:1–2)
    (2) The Second Objection and Answer (3:3–4)
    (3) The Third Objection and Answer (3:5–8)
    3. A Pictorial Anatomy of Human Depravity (3:9–18)
    a) Human Depravity is Universal (3:9–12)
    b) Human Depravity is Total (3:13–18)
    4. The Legal Futility of Human Depravity (3:19–20)
    a)TheAuthorityoftheLaw (3:19a)
    b) The Jurisdiction of the Law (3:19b)
    c) The Condemnation of the Law (3:20a)
    d) The Purpose of the Law (3:20b


    [
     
    #27 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    .

    His testimony was heard to the other thief and evidently the Apostles who recorded it for us.....it is heard in hundreds of sermons about it.....we know of it,so it is not a secret.
    I do not agree at all...scripture says not all men have faith.....and dying an agonizing death ,to be given clarity of mind to confess Christ was of the Spirit.
     
    #28 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Works based religion teaches that one cannot be saved without an outward expression of faith in Christ Jesus. However, John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life. So it is faith, and not the expression of faith or a changed life that saves.

    But if a person is saved and enters the second phase of salvation, progressive sanctification, will he or she grow more like Christ? Yes. So when we are interviewing folks as potential members of our local assembly, we look for testimony of a changed life. But this evidence is not proof, only God knows who are His.
     
    #29 Van, May 1, 2013
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely! :D
     
    #30 annsni, May 1, 2013
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Works provides evidence of salvation but neither provides salvation nor proves salvation.
     
    #31 Van, May 1, 2013
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Consider this passage a bit more carefully.
    It is recorded by Luke. Who was Luke? Luke was not an apostle. Where did he get his information? He did accompany Paul on his missionary journeys. He may have gotten some information from him and possibly from other apostles, but it is doubtful that he was an eyewitness to the events at the cross.
    Who was at the cross? John was there. The other apostles had fled out of fear. Now in the testimony of the thief, who heard him? There is no record that anyone heard him--not even the other thief, or the Roman centurion, or anyone. Then how did this come to be recorded?

    The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible. If you look in the latter part of 1Cor.11 you can find Paul quoting the words of Jesus, word for word. He describes exactly what happened in the Upper Room, though he was never there. How does he do this? It was the Holy Spirit of God that revealed to him this information to be recorded in 1Cor.11 for our sakes. God himself is the author of the Scriptures.

    Paul spent three years in Arabia before he even met with the Apostles, there being taught by God. He received direct revelation from Him in those three years. Luke was his companion in traveling. However, since Paul met with the other apostles, I am sure that Luke was there also and must have inquired diligently from them, especially John.

    But it was the Holy Spirit that gave Luke that information. We have no record that what was said was even audible. They were dying. It was a painful death. It was audible enough to be heard between them both, but not necessarily to be heard all the way across to the third thief. We don't know that. Perhaps those at the base of the cross may have heard him, and perhaps they ignored what was going on. Why would some unsaved Roman soldiers be interested in the conversation between two criminals?

    The only thing we know for sure is that the testimony of the thief, the record of him putting his faith in Christ, is written down in Scripture. It was put there by the Holy Spirit. It was not a great proclamation of his faith for anyone to hear. We don't know if anyone heard him at all. We can't read into scripture that which is not there. It was the Holy Spirit that told Luke what to write, and Luke accurately recorded what the Holy Spirit wanted recorded, for there is no evidence that Luke was even there.
     
    #32 DHK, May 1, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The truth is that ALl saved prson will evidence to some degree fruit of that salvation, the problem is when we try to define what is acceptable to make it "one has been officially saved!"

    You and I hold to salvation as a reformed model, would we not also agree that the salvation os of the lord, so the evidence will His work ina nd thru us also?
     
    #33 Yeshua1, May 1, 2013
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The problem is that people use james to support Grace+faith +works =salvation, the biblical view of paul is that God Frelly and fully justified a sinner thru the Cross, and received that grace thru faith makes us saved!

    james point is that once saved, we should somehow be acting as if a new creature in christ, so Paul speaks to intial salvation, James after getting saved!
     
    #34 Yeshua1, May 1, 2013
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is a straw man though, for the same bible teaches that if saved, the HS produces fruit in us, so all saved always have some good work!

    And i also must go back to Paul stating that even if ALL works are not good in the sense of eternally rewarded, that person shall stay be saved, not lost!

    Are you saying that the saint cannot rebel against God to a degree, that he cannot chose to live not as God intended, but as a saved but weak Chrsitian?
     
    #35 Yeshua1, May 1, 2013
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Simple Math

    Grace + Faith = Salvation + Works

    Thus works provides evidence of salvation, but folks can do works and not be saved, i.e. the folks that were told to depart from Jesus in Matthew 7.
     
    #36 Van, May 1, 2013
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK,
    Luke tells us how he wrote what he wrote, by the Spirit,in the first 4 verses of the gospel,

    1 Seeing that many did take in hand to set in order a narration of the matters that have been fully assured among us,

    2 as they did deliver to us, who from the beginning became eye-witnesses, and officers of the Word, --

    3 it seemed good also to me, having followed from the first after all things exactly, to write to thee in order, most noble Theophilus,

    4 that thou mayest know the certainty of the things wherein thou wast instructed.
    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #37 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::applause::thumbs:
     
    #38 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This kind of sermon raises that very issue..if someone has no fruit in the life, what reason do they have to believe they are saved at all?
    We cannot play Holy Spirit and speculate too much about others.We can sound a warning to self examination as we do not want anyone to as Hebrews speak of...fall short of His rest.


    Sure...salvation is of the Lord....but it is effectual and actual.:thumbs:
     
    #39 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Again...what if you see someone in your local assembly making little if no progress in service, growth,knowledge...is that Ok? Do we ignore it?Are we our brothers keeper?
    I am not sure what verse you are thinking of with this?All works no good?

    Any saint who "rebels" ...would come under severe discipline by God.

    Fact is...some who"rebel" are no saint at all.
     
    #40 Iconoclast, May 1, 2013
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