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No Greater Joy Ministry

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by abcgrad94, Mar 31, 2008.

  1. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Since you and Dale feel that way, so you two won't be viewed as talebearing gossips, I'll have to ask you both to approach the Pearls with your accusations in person. Then we'll see who is the "better Christian"? That is what you're both acting as if yall are both better than them in the way yall carry on in here.
     
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I understand - but you do not train a horse by baiting them then beating them, which is exactly what the Pearl's promote. I've trained numerous horses and the two that I have right now are like night and day. One of them needed a lot more whip because he was honestly very defiant. He'd NOT do something just because. Even my trainer from Germany, who trains Olympic horses was shocked when she rode him. There aren't many horses like him, fortunately. The horse that I'm working with mostly right now CAN NOT be beaten into submission. He has no self-esteem (was not handled well before we got him) and he needs a lot of coaching, encouragement and cookies. But he's also the most talented, honest and fun horse I've worked with. At 1500 lbs., I need to know how to work with him in order to get the best out of him. Ask him to do something then smack him when he does it? I'd be dead. And I'm not joking.

    To see what I'm working with, see here: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/annsni/horses/Img_4841.jpg
    and to understand his size - I'm 5'3": http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/annsni/Img_2077.jpg

    That's not the way they speak in their books. Telling a woman her reason for being created is to serve her man does not seem like an "idea" but a directive. There is plenty of 'do it this way or else' in the parenting book.


    No - I gave the quote, I think. On page 29 of Created to be His Help Meet "Your husband is, without a doubt, wrong. It would be wonderful if he were wise and godly, but he isn't. God has provided for your husband's complete sanctification and deliverance from temptation through you, his wife." Time and time again in the book, a man has strayed and she says that he strayed because he wasn't getting it at home. Honestly, from what I've seen, men don't stray because they're not getting it at home. They stray because their going by their own desires and not God's desire for them. Period.




    First off, it's not Michael Pearl - it's his wife Debi. Second of all, look up the Greek word that's used for "discreet" in Titus 2:4 and tell me if she's dead on. Where is it translated as "taste", "behavior" and "judgment"? IF you can show me that, then I'll agree that they're right on. But they lie. Period.



    I have, and he does. But if I come in with a kiss and a provacative look, well..... Even being sweaty, hairy and horsey, it doesn't matter. Nuff said on that.



    Look - I agree with spanking and I've done it with each of my children - some more than others. But I'm not setting them up then spanking them or spanking them for doing things like a 3 month old baby holding my hair. I will not get a plumbing hose to spank my kids - I will use my hand most of the time and periodically, I'll use the wooden spoon on a clothed bottom (but that's rare). I will spank them for willful disobedience and defiance. I won't spank them for crying, I won't spank them for doing something they don't know is wrong and I'm not going to set them up then spank them. God's not like that and my husband and I will be the earthly model of what their heavenly Father is like. My older 2 are now 15 and 18 and amazingly wonderful girls. I never had the "snotty" stage, never had the "teen" stage and we get along GREAT. They're also young women with such a heart for the Lord that at times it brings tears of joy to my eyes. I guess I did OK by them - and I did a LOT of stuff that Michael Pearl says not to do and warns about. I raised them not according to books or teachers other than other Christian women in my life and prayer.

    Just another thought for you. Where in the Bible is there direction for a man to teach a woman how to parent? You might want to read this article written by a Godly mother of 10 and a woman who I would consider one of my mentors: http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/womantowoman.html
     
  3. Beth

    Beth New Member

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    Gorgeous!

    Ann, gorgeous horse! You must have alot of fun with them!!!
     
  4. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    One thing many have come to the realization is that when one spanks with their hand, it confuses the same hand when it is extended to caress the child instead.

    The Pearls have much to offer and I do NOT agree with everything they say, but on the "discreet" issue, I don't know all the resources used to make their claim, but John Gill in his expository makes reference to "taste". On the "judgement" sense of the word, I would object to that use since discernment iincorprates judgement but without the condmenation.

    "Behaviour"? Well, temperament is behaviour.

    They are right on with the "discreet" analogies.

    I have found no other lady worthy of more respect and also praiseworthy than a truly godly and Christian lady.

    The problem we have this day in time there are many women demanding to be called ladies, but actually we see very few.

    In your case? I will not judge. Beautiful horse there.
     
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I've heard this argument before and honestly I don't buy it. I've spanked 4 kids with my hands and not one of them ever was confused. They knew they did wrong because we spoke about it. They knew they were going to get spanked because we spoke about it. Never once did I hit them with my hand without them knowing about it ahead of time. I asked my girls if that ever confused them and they looked at me like I had two heads. "Never" was the answer. So in my experience, that's not true.

    Have you looked to see how that word is also translated in the other verses in the KJV? Is it ever translated as "taste", "behavior" and "judgment"? If your pastor said that a Greek word is translated as ____ AND ____ in the KJV, yet it is not, is this not a lie? The Pearls lie.

    As for anything to offer, I strongly disagree. I see danger, lies and heresy in their books. Not what I'd want to offer to a wife or mother to learn how to be a proper wife or mother.
     
  6. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    From experience, I strongly disagree with you use of spanking with your hands. My mother did so. It has been one of my most hated memories of the abuse she showed towards us kids.

    I'm glad your children answered the way they did, else you might warn them and then hit them? I would hope not. You should realize this sort of "spanking" strikes a nerve with me.



    I have looked and I agree the way discreet is defined includes those others definitions.

    I don't ever limit my understanding to any one version of the Greek.

    I have found it very encouraging to see where some accuse the Greek of not supporting something but contrarywise, I find the Greek to have that use according to the verb form it is found to be used in just that way.
     
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Umm - I would never spank my children for their honest opinion. And I don't think I've spanked my girls in ...... probably 10 years (they're now 18 and almost 16 - well, maybe I did with my almost 16 year old since she was my strong willed child. I probably stopped spanking her around 7??) My almost 16 year old's the one who says a LOT when we talk of discipline that she wants to raise her kids just as we did ours. With love and consequences.

    I understand that if you were abused, then you would have strong feelings and I've honestly told those who have been physically abused as a child to NOT spank a child. It's just too easy for them to slip into an abusive state. I'm sorry you had that experience as a child.

    No - what I'm asking is for you to look at the Greek word that is used for "discreet" then see how that particular word is translated in the other instances it occurs. From what I can see (I'm certainly no Greek scholar and I'm going by Blue Letter Bible), the word is "sophron" and occurs a total of 4 times. One time it is translated "discreet" as in this passage (Titus 2:5), twice it's translated as "sober" (Titus 1:8 and 1 Timothy 3:2) and once it's translated as "temperate" (Titus 2:2). However, Debi Pearl says it's translated as "taste", "behavior" and "judgment". Can you find for me where this is? I cannot accept an entire argument when it's based on false translation.
     
  8. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    The definitions are synonomously affected by the others when used in the same context. As for specific translational incurences, I don't know.

    That doesn't change the fact they are descriptive of what the godly woman should continue to be.

    Taste, behaviour and judgement are linked relatively with one being discreet. As for a specific example, again, I don't know, but that doesn't change the facts either.
     
  9. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    From one abused child to another: what my mother called "spanking" was not the sort of thing Ann decribes.

    We should perhaps have defined spanking here as an open handed swat to the buttocks of a child.

    What my mother called spanking was open handed(most of the time) hits to whatever body part was readily available(head, back, arm, etc). Many, many times I saw stars because she hit me in my face and my nose took the brunt of it. This sort of thing is absolutely not what Ann is advocating.

    As for the Pearls and the OP, I've disregarded what little I've gathered of their teaching and wouldn't recommend them to anyone. I don't do legalism or control. I want my children to learn to make good decisions without the threat of "what's mom going to do to me". Much, much better for them to be thinking "what does God have to say about what I'm doing".
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    It certainly doesn't change the fact that they mislead their readers into thinking that something is translated a certain way from the Greek but it's not. That's lying straight up. Well, Michael Pearl might say that he's living a sinless sanctified life but his wife sinned in lying to the women she's trying to teach. Yep - not who I'd recommend to a woman looking to be a Godly wife.
     
  11. Emily25069

    Emily25069 New Member

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    I have To train up a child.

    I tell you what, it made a HUGE difference in my oldest child. I had gotten on the anti-spanking bandwagon, and seeing all the different scriptures on spanking made me finally see the light. They have some good suggestions.

    They do not exactly tell you to tempt the child by setting him up to fail. I mean, they sort of do, but thats not exactly the heart or the goal of it all. What they are suggesting is that you train them how to respond to different situations before the situations come up.

    I have personally found this to be helpful. I have trained my toddlers to come to me using the training sessions that he recommends, and I have also trained my children to sit in my laps contentedly using these training sessions. It really isnt cruel the way that everyone describes. In fact, it can be downright delightful, and the fruit of it really is a happier child I think.

    I read CTBHHM as well. I think it would be a wonderful book for a naggy whiny drag of a wife to read, but I tend to agree with the rest of the folks who say it puts far too much emphasis on blaming the woman, and it also comes very near to recommending a woman stay in a dangerous situation.

    I'd hesitate to really recommend it to anyone.

    I dont know much about their theology, but they do give me an uneasy feeling. They have a baptist feel to them, but Im not sure what they are.

    I really dont think Michael Pearl claims to live in sinless perfection, since he laughs at his imperfections often and his wife says numerous times that she is married to a sinful man just like any other woman.
     
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Read post #29 and the exact quotes from his Romans Series on post #22
     
  13. AAA

    AAA New Member

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    I like his books and I find them helpful, however I have been wanting to know more of what he believe...Thanks for the infomation...
     
  14. queenbee

    queenbee Member

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    I don't know anything about this couple or Joy Ministries? - first I've ever heard of them, but just reading some of the comments really gives me the heebies. Spanking a couple of months old baby??? Did I read that right Ann?? Outrageous!!!

    No, this is not something I'd want to pass along to a young couple just starting out with a family or even dear friends who might be having marital issues. I think there is far better reading and relationship material out there than the sounds of this.
     
  15. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    I challenge the readers to give us the book, page # and quote from Bro. Pearl concerning "spanking a couple of months old baby" Lets take a look at his context and reasoning, if we please!!
     
  16. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    p.5 "When my children were able to crawl (in the case of one, roll) around the room, I set up training sessions. Place an appealing object where they can reach it, maybe in a "No-no"corner or on an apple juice table. When they spy it and make a dive for it, in a calm voice say, "No, don't touch it." They will already be familiar with the "no" so they will pause, look at you in wonder and then turn around and grab it. Switch their hand once and and simultaneously say, "No".


    p.6 "When you are holding a baby and he keeps pulling off your glasses, you cannot explain to him the impropriety of such socially crude behavior.The little tot is not yet moved by fear of rejection. So, do you try to hold him in a pinned-down fashion where he can't get to your face? No, you train him not to touch."..."When he touches the glasses again, say, "no," and accompany your command with minor pain. Sure enough, again the glasses caused pain; and the pain is always accompanied by a quiet little "no".

    p. 9
    "One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At FOUR MONTHS (emphasis mine) she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
    He consistently says "this is not disciplining, this is training." I cant reconcile the fact that God does not set us up in order to train us.
     
    #56 TaterTot, Apr 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2008
  17. queenbee

    queenbee Member

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    Thanks Ann for including some of the 'advice' from the book. Scary to think any sane female, would latch on to this stuff. I think your suggestion is a good one :laugh:
     
  18. queenbee

    queenbee Member

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    I just finished browsing through some of the websites suggested. Very telling comment from a lady? on David Cloud's website where they (family) appear to have been originally enthralled with No Greater Joy.....

    "We have subscribed to No Greater Joy for a few years and have enjoyed some of the home schooling articles but it has bothered me for quite some time that Michael Pearl’s teaching is dangerous and, in some cases, heretical. After examining these other websites, I realized that we can’t try to ignore the bad while trying to glean the good because the bad will seep in some way or other. Satan is very clever and he will get to God’s people in any subtle way he can.”

    There's nothing like someone who's been there/done that to confirm why we should avoid this heretical and highly suspect teaching. And that sums up for me (and Ann's good arguments), why I wouldn't want this questionable stuff anywhere near my home, church, family or friends.
     
  19. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    And like I've said, I don't agree with everything they teach.

    I have benefitted from both angles: the one where I found they are right, and the other where I found they are way off!

    I don't view their writings as subjective. I do look at all commentaries from the objective point. I always look to the word of God as my Final Authority, coupled with life's experience to concur with the Scripture and to refute erroneous teachings.:godisgood:
     
  20. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    In all sincerety, I think you're offering a perverted view of what they are saying.

    A simple "No" works fine until the child, no matter the age, decides to rebel against that command and must experience some level of pain to discourage that rebellion.

    I do agree with you that "setting them up" by placing a desirable object in front of them is wrong it seems to be more to tempt them to "sin". I do agree with their approach when it is something that has a specific place in our home that is "off-limits" or in "No-no land".

    I decide what is to be where in our home, but I do know the principle of "Keep out of reach of children".

    I believe it is more WHAT belongs where and what should be out of their reach that would best incorporate what they teach rather than this general condemnation to everything one most assuredly has misunderstood.

    I won't let the paring knife on the table where my toddler can reach it and then spank them for trying to get it, that IS abuse! I have accidentally left things in their reach and promptly removed the temptation and with a resounding "NO!" It works!
     
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