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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Aaron, Nov 22, 2002.
There are no infants in hell; only spirits.
No infants in hell - I agree.
No infants in Hell - I agree.
Only spirits in Hell - I disagree. At the resurrection both the just and the unjust will be resurrected (bodily) - and the unjust will suffer torment of both body and soul in Hell.
Will their resurected bodies be bodies of infants or adults?
Whether that spirit was released from an infant body or not. Only spirits are in hell.
Only the saved receive glorified, incorruptible bodies. It is a spiritual body. Everything else will be burned up in the last day (including the bodies of clay.)
There will also be telephones in hell. Surely some of the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be caused by incessant calls from telemarketers.
Since man is created as a spirit, in the image of God, are you saying that infants are not created in the image of God? The person IS the spirit. We live in the bodies. But they are not us.
Of course, if the annihilationist view of eternal destruction is correct, eventually there won't be anything in hell, spirits or spiritual bodies.
The annihilationist view is simply another gospel.
No. It only has to do with what verses like this mean -
2 Thessalonians 1:9(NASB)
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
It is another gospel. If it is true, then there are two ways of escaping the wrath of God:
1. Imputed righteousness of Christ
It is sloppy exegesis.
As to the original question, I don't believe babies go to hell. However, the departed spirit does not have immediate form. The lost will not have form again until they are raised right before their eternal judgment.
No. Eternal destruction is in no way escaping the wrath of God. It is the wrath of God at full force.
Ken, you cease to exist. You will not be under the wrath of God. You will be no more. It is difficult for nothing to experience wrath.
This brings up a question to ponder. Is Jesus still under the wrath of God? Or did the wrath of God upon Him end at some point? If punishment is infinite upon man, and Jesus suffered for His people as a man, then wasn't the punishment actually finite?
Anyone have any ideas?
I don't think you can make an absolute parallel.
1. Christ did not suffer the wrath for every single individual.
2. Christ was able to endure the wrath of God in time. Christ himself is eternal. It was God's plan to pour his wrath out on Christ. It was also God's plan that Christ raise himself from the dead. Therefore, he could not suffer eternally.
3. In Revelation at the judgment, unbelievers are specifically said to be raised for judgment that is forever and ever.
Christ came in the flesh, and it was really Him!
See 1 John, Colossians, et al.
God created us body and soul. Both are "us".
> Christ has purchased both body and soul.
1 Cor. 6:20 - For you were bought at a price;
therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
Rom. 8:23 - ...eagerly awaiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body.
> Both body and soul receive punishment.
Mt. 10:28b - But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.
Jn. 5:28-29 - "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
> The body we have now will be changed, but not eradicated, at the resurrection.
1 Cor. 15:42-44 - "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, IT is rasied in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, IT is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, IT is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
1 Cor. 15:50-54 - "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be CHANGED-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. For THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. So when THIS CORRUPTIBLE HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and THIS MORTAL HAS PUT ON IMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Just a thought: If only souls were redeemed, and we were "mere" souls, then the resurrection would be pointless.
Rev. G, I think you misunderstood. When a person has an amputation, is the person any less of a person?
It occurred to me after one of my (too many) surgeries on my knee that I would always talk about 'it', and 'my knee,' as though it were not totally a part of who I really was. And I started laughing. Even when my body rots in the ground, I will still be me, only not in my body. That is what I was trying to say. It is not gnosticism, for I am not saying either that the physical world is evil or non-existant. It is both good as part of God's creation and very much existant. And while I am in the body, this is what we all think of as Helen. But as I have been through these surgeries, and lost parts to them, I have become more of a person, not less.
So please understand what was being said and don't just jump to the conclusion and accusation that you did.
No, an individual who suffers an amputation or dismemberment is definitely not any less of a person.
But that body that will one day rot in the ground will be resurrected, then tailored for eternity. You will not be rid of your body, just separated for a time.
In fairness, I would request that you be a bit more careful in how you state things. You said,
"We live in the bodies. But they are not us." They are not all of us, but they are us (we are body and soul). And again, one who has undergone the surgeries you have, or dismemberment (like my grand-father, war veterans, etc.), is not "less of a person." Nor is one who is aged, infirm, lame, blind, bald, etc. We are looking forward to the redemption of our bodies - when we will truly be "whole"!
Just a question: Have you ever read Joni Eareckson-Tada on this subject? Fantastic!*
* I'm sure you would find her very encouraging, if you haven't already, even though she is a "Calvinst".
yes, I think I have read all of Joni's books, and loved and recommended them, too.
However, as a person in science, I have to honestly laugh at the idea that THESE bodies will be resurrected. You probably have atoms in you from millions of different people who have lived before you. Every seven years every cell in you is completely different, and some a whole lot more often than that. Some of your proteins are disassembled every few HOURS. You shed skin cells continuously, lose baby teeth, and often adult teeth, too! Your hair grows, is cut, falls out. You don't have a cell in you that is the same as just a few years ago!
THESE physical bodies -- WHICH? This one right this second? The one I had ten years ago?
We are recycled materials, Rev. G!
I'm not sure how God will create our new bodies, but I know He will and I know we will recognize each other. Apart from that, I am willing to wait and see. But as far as the actual atoms, molecules, and cells, who is to get them? Their original 'owners', their last 'owners' -- who?