No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Jun 27, 2012.

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  1. OldRegular

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    Man in his natural state is a child of wrath [Ephesians 2:3] and at emnity with God [Ephesians 2:15]. Though such men are convinced they have “free will” they do not,. They are in bondage to sin.[Romans 6:20] and are incapable of choosing or desiring God. This inherent inability of the person “dead in tresspass and sin”, called Total Inability or Total Depravity, is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in the following Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


    Now consider words of Jesus Christ from the Gospel of John:

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    In this one verse of Scripture we have a clear, concise statement of the inherent inability of the person “dead in tresspass and sin” to come of his own accord to Jesus Christ

    Once the Doctrine of Total Inability [Depravity] is established logic indicates that the remaining points of TULIP are confirmed: Man is in bondage to sin and is incapable of choosing or desiring God, therefore, God must take the initiative. And He does!
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    Looks very clearly biblical.:wavey: Surely no one would deny these clear truths:thumbsup:
     
  3. mandym

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    I disagree. I hold to Total Depravity. But I also hold that in the midst of the Total Depravity of man God has the power and does reach into man's heart and offers him grace while giving him room to make a decision to come to Him or reject Him [John 1:12]. Not because God needs man to do this but because God wants it done this way.

    Because man is Totally Depraved and God opened up man's heart and gave man the ability to make that choice there can no credit for salvation be given to man [John 1:13].

    In speaking to the rich young ruler Jesus did not say it is difficult to enter the Kingdom of God because of Total Depravity. What Jesus did say is that it is difficult to enter the Kingdom of God because of wealth [Matt 19:23]. It is clear here Jesus intended that this rich young ruler be converted and he had it within him to accept or reject the gospel.

    The Holy Ghost takes the gospel and uses it to open up the heart of man when grace if offered to all men [ Mark 3:29; I Thess 1:5]
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Correct, which is why God sent his Son, the apostles, the Church and his Spirit to make an appeal to all those under wrath to be reconciled. Why do you suppose God would send a message like that and not make it more powerful than the nature of the enemy to whom he is making his appeal?

    In other words, what has lead you to believe the appeal of the gospel for enemies to be reconciled to God is insufficient to enable a response? Is not the Gospel the power of God unto Salvation? Is not the Gospel the very words of God? Is not the Gospel produced, preserved and carried by the Holy Spirit Himself? Is not the Gospel a WORK of the Holy Spirit? If yes, then why presume that it is an insufficient work and that it must be accompanied by some secret, extra, additional irresistible working of the Spirit in order for it to have any positive affect?
     
  5. MorseOp

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    Hi, mandym!

    Actually your belief is very close to the Reformed view of regeneration. The point of separation is that you believe man has the power to choose or reject before God acts on man's heart. The Reformed view is that God acts on man's heart first (Eph. 2:4, 5). Once God does this (through the Holy Spirit) the heart of man is drawn to Christ. The draw is so strong that it overrides even the powerful temptations of sin that all of us battle daily. All of this happens in the blink of an eye. Man must believe. It's required (Acts 16:30, 31). But trust me. I do understand why you hold to your view. It was my view for a very long time.

    Blessings.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    You willing to back up your assertion with just a wee bit of your fortune?:laugh::laugh:
     
  7. Winman

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    I would disagree. I interpret being dead in sin to being "condemned" not unable.

    Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Jesus said a man who has believed is not condemned, but a man who believes not is condemned already BECAUSE he has not believed on Jesus. Spiritual death is condemnation, not lack of ability.

    It is like a man on death row, he is condemned to die, though he has not yet physically died. A man that is on death row could be offered a pardon and accept that pardon and be freed.



    The natural man can receive the Spirit and then understand the scriptures afterward. This is shown in numerous verses.


    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first hearing and believing the gospel. Ephesians 1:13 confirms this;

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    This verse clearly and simply says a man receives and is sealed by the Holy Spirit AFTER he believes. The verse actually uses the word AFTER.

    No man is born again unless he has the Spirit.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    No man is born again unless the Holy Spirit dwells IN them. But Gal 3:2 and Eph 1:13 shows a man receives the Spirit AFTER believing. Therefore, logically it follows that the natural man can believe, and after believing is born again by receiving the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    These men were convicted, they were pricked in the heart. They clearly understood the preaching of Peter. Were they saved? NO, because Peter told them they must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. There is no remission of sins until a person believes, we are justified by faith. Only after repenting and believing on Jesus did Peter promise they would receive the Holy Spirit. Therefore, unregenerate men can both repent and believe on Jesus, and if they do they will receive the Holy Spirit and be regenerated.

    Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

    This verse also shows that a man first repents and turns to God in faith, and afterward God pours out the Holy Spirit to them. Then after receiving the Spirit they are given understanding of scripture.


    Paul was quoting Psalm 14 here, speaking of "fools" who have said in their heart there is no God. He is not speaking of all men, for in the same Psalm these fools are contrasted to God's people, the "righteous", and the poor who find refuge in God.

    Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
    5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
    6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

    Paul was quoting Psalm 14 in Romans 3, and would have been mishandling scripture if he was saying all men cannot understand or seek God, because the same Psalm speaks of "my people", "the righteous" and "the poor, because God is his refuge". It was these fools that denied God who oppressed God's people.

    Jesus had already explained how men come to him in this chapter.

    Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Did Jesus say those that have been regenerated shall come to him? NO, he said those that have been taught by the Father shall come to him, those that have heard and learned from the Father. This is by hearing the Word of God.

    That's the point, Total Inability is not shown in scripture. Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13, Acts 2:37-38 and many other scriptures I could easily show you all show that the unregenerate man can hear, repent, and believe on Jesus, and when they do, afterward they receive the Holy Spirit and are born again, regenerated.
     
    #7 Winman, Jun 27, 2012
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  8. mandym

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    I did not say that and it is not what I believe.
     
  9. MorseOp

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    I apologize. That's the way it appeared to me. Can you offer me a clarification so that I understand correctly?
     
  10. OldRegular

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    The Holy Spirit makes a change in the person who is “dead in tresspass and sin” and then His appeal receives a response.

    Because Scripture tells me so and I presented that Scripture in the OP. I am just going by what Jesus Christ said. Frankly I cannot find it in myself to deny what He so clearly states.

    It most certainly is! I am reminded of the Scripture as recorded by the Prophet Isaiah:

    Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    God states unequivocally that His word shall accomplish that which He pleases. The Gospel is the Power of God yet you would make that power dependent on the will of man who is in bondage to sin.


    The idea of irresistible grace is in response to the 4th of the Remonstrances by the followers of Jacobus Arminius: God's saving grace is resistible. Irresistible grace is an unfortunate choice of words because it gives some people, honestly or not, an excuse to claim that man is dragged kicking and screaming to salvation or else man is a robot. I believe that the Holy Spirit performs a work of Grace in the elect person; one who was spiritually dead and was once hostile to God is made spiritually alive [regeneration] and is now receptive to the Gospel and is converted and justified by faith, a Gift of God. I believe Ephesians 2:1-8 teaches this as clearly as can be taught.
     
  11. Winman

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    This is utterly illogical, how can you reject something that wasn't first offered to you? Likewise, how can you possibly accept something that wasn't first offered to you?
     
  12. OldRegular

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    You are denying Scripture. I did not write the following God did.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Jesus Christ said clearly that no man, and that includes you, can come to Him unless it is GIVEN onto him by God the Father. That means you did not come of your own free will which is a slave of sin!

    Winman you have a total misconception of the Doctrines of Grace.

    You believe that man is either a robot or else is dragged kicking and screaming to salvation. That is false. God works a change in man called regeneration or the new birth and then gives him the gift of faith.

    You insist that those who do believe that Salvation is by the Sovereign Grace of God ignore the role of faith in salvation. That is sheer nonsense and you know it. The cry of the Reformation was Justification by faith alone and that still holds.

    Another problem you have is you want to insist that everything in the Bible must be in chronological order. It is not!
     
  13. MorseOp

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    Hello, Winman.

    Jesus said:

    Those whom the Father gives to the Son (through election) will come to the Son. IMHO that means that none of those whom the Father gives to Son will choose not to come to the Son. I believe the Bible teaches this in many other passages as well, not just John 6.

    As far as rejecting, no one whom the Father gives to the Son can reject the Son. Those who reject the Son are those who already are in sin and continue in sin. Paul wrote:

    Speaking from my heart, this is a very difficult passage to contemplate. It caused me great consternation for a number of years. I had little difficulty in accepting the Reformed view of election. I believe it is biblical and the right interpretation of scripture. For me the issue was the idea that God may be unfair and unjust, if not capricious. Did Pharaoh ever have a chance? How about Judas Iscariot, who was prophesied as a son of perdition? I had to make the decision to trust God at His word. He does harden the hearts of some. We do not know who he hardens or for what reasons. Those things are secret (Deut. 29:29). What I am convinced of is those whom he hardens are guilty of rejecting his call to repentance (Acts 17:30).

    I know you may not agree with this, but I hope it explains the biblical reasons why I hold to my conviction.
     
  14. Winman

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    Who said it wasn't given to men, not me. I didn't write the scriptures.

    You don't get it, if it were not for the scriptures or preachers who preached the Word of God to you, you would have no concept of the true God and Jesus Christ. Unless God had given us all this revelation, all men would be in utter darkness and could not be saved.

    When Jesus said no man could come to him unless it were given him of the Father, he is speaking directly of the Word of God.

    Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    God has given us his Word. But it is up to us to hear and learn from the Father.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    You are denying the very Scripture you quoted! Verse 65 does not say it is up to Winman. It states that it is up to GOD!
     
  16. Winman

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    I agree and accept all of this, though I understand it differently. I believe God in his foreknowledge could foresee all those who would believe in time and chose these persons. It is these persons he gave to Christ.

    We are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father;

    1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Now whatever you believe, you must believe that we are elected according to God's foreknowledge, something God knew before it actually happened. I believe this is faith. A good example is Nathanael in John 1.

    Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
    46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
    48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
    49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
    50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

    I believe this passage is a view of God's foreknowledge. Look at the terms used, it says "Jesus saw Nathanael COMING TO HIM.

    Notice how Nathanael was surprised and asked how Jesus KNEW HIM.

    Note how Jesus called Nathanael an ISRAELITE INDEED, IN WHOM THERE IS NO GUILE. Compare this to Romans 2:28-29 where a true Jew is a child of Abraham, one who has faith whose praise is from God.

    There is more scripture that shows God knows who will believe and who will not.

    Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    This verse directly tells us that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe not. If Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe, he would also know who believes by simple process of elimination.

    So, there you are, you are directly told in scripture that God knows who will believe and who will not.

    God did not make Pharaoh or Judas sin, God does not tempt ANY man to sin.

    Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    God is good, he is not the author of evil. However, God knew beforehand that Pharaoh would rebel against him and never repent, and so God justly used Pharaoh to demonstrate his power. God did not cause Judas to betray Jesus, but he knew he would, and allowed him to do so to bring about Jesus being crucified for our sins.

    You are correct, I do not agree. I do not believe that God determines who will be saved and who will be not unconditionally. God knows who will believe and who will not, and he has chosen all those that believe.
     
  17. Amy.G

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    This is what I believe as well. We don't know all the why's of what God does, but scripture is clear that He hardens some and He saves some. God is not obligated to tell us all of His secret things.
     
  18. Winman

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    And you ignore verse 64 where Jesus said, "But there are some of you that believe not"

    God gives us his Word, his revelation. This enables a man to believe, for no man can believe what he does not know. But it is our duty to believe. God came down and spoke to us in a way a man could understand and believe if he chooses to do so.

    But if we believe, it is no credit to us, because we could not possibly have believed unless God had revealed Jesus to us.

    It is like giving a man who is dying of thirst a big glass of cold water. Does he take credit because he accepts the water and drinks it? Of course not. And this is exactly how Jesus described receiving the Spirit.

    Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
    14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Jesus offers us the water of life, but we have to drink it (believe). You could be dying of thirst and I give you a glass of water, won't do you a bit of good unless YOU drink it.
     
    #18 Winman, Jun 27, 2012
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  19. OldRegular

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    I fear that many people want a God they can completely understand. I don't understand myself or anyone else. I thank God He tells us:

    Isaiah 55:8, 9
    8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    No Winman. I just got through posting in response to you: faith is an essential aspect of salvation.
     
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