No Middle Ground

Actually, some of the earliest extant manuscripts omit the passage, beginning at the ninth verse. No matter. Christ was baptized, the apostles, and, as far as Scritpure seems to be concerned, every believer. In fact, some were baptized on behalf of those already dead.

So the argument for baptism as a means of grace, or for that matter as neccesary for salvation, cannot be discounted by simply ignoring Mark 16:16.

And if I may reiterate my orignal post, there is middle ground. The whole planet is not made up only of RCC and Baptists.

 

By Grace are you SAVED through FAITH and that not of Works lest any man should boast IT IS the Gift of God.

Impossible to miss - God does not "owe" us salvation. We are all lost sinners. Salvation is God's Gift to lost mankind.

However the term "by Faith Alone" is only found one place in the entire NT. And what it says in that section of scripture is also "instructive". But then - you would have to see in scripture "two justifications". ONE that is described in Romans 2 - (one that is future). And another that is described in Romans 3 (one that is in the believer's past).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Tragic Pizza

This scripture was discussed and explained at length a week or so ago. You might try to search for it.

Diane

 

There is no middle ground. Jesus made it quite plain.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Either you have the Son or you don't.
Either you have eternal life or you don't.
There is no middle ground.
DHK

 

Notice, Dr. Bob, that the verse you quote does not say "faith alone".

And you have failed to take yer crack at exegeting the passage I posted from Romans 2.

Want to show us your theological gymnastics and how you avoid the obvious meaning of those verses?

I be curious to see how you do it...I have seen others. Maybe you have a better form at denying that which Scripture so clearly teaches.

 

Dr. Bob, those are nice verses and all, but if we are going to speak scriptural truth, why not replace your verse for for James 2:24? Does your "faith alone" still fit?

 

Scripture doesn't contradict itself Adam. Why don't you give us the answer?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal.3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

So I am saved because I intellectually assent to the idea that Jesus died for my sins?

 

"Who ever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

 

So then you believe that a person is saved by faith alone?

 

Your idea (most non-Catholics) of faith alone I find unlikely, but until I have a reason to truly, without a doubt not believe it, I'll stick with it.

 

How about this one:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

In Romans 2:13 - "It is NOT the Hearers of the Law that ARE Just before God but the Doers WILL BE Justififed" - and then in vs 14-16 it gives a "succeeding example" of a group that "will be Justified" under that rule.

In James 2:24 we see the same concept - of justification.

But in Romans 3 we find "past Justification" - as one "by faith - apart from the works of the Law".

When we come to Christ we ARE justified "by faith alone" -

But the future objective, corporate, demonstrated justification (as seen in Daniel 7 where judgment is passed In Favor of the saints) - is based on Christ's Matt 7 priniciple "By their fruits you Shall know them".

These are not "opposing" truths in scripture. They are two sides of the same coin. Justification by faith alone - coming to Christ and finding Grace - not on the basis of your previous good works but on the basis of God's mercy alone.

Then - in that Daniel 7 scenario - the "tree that is made good on the inside is seen" to bear good fruit (as Christ said in Matt 7). If any man is in Christ he IS a new creation 2Cor 5.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Adam: I think it is important to put this verse in some context. It’s talking about being saved at the end of the world. This would be a sort of baptism of desire with no opportunity to do all Jesus Christ and the gospel has commanded, such as baptism.

The words, " And it shall come to pass" is important here. There is a change in normal procedure going to happen, when there is no more time to observe His teachings. In His mercy He will save whoever calls on His name. This is a prophecy of things to come, not normal salvation by Grace.

God Bless

[ July 25, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Here is the context Tuor. Always read the context.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

In the entire passage Jesus is speaking of false prophets and false teachers. You shall know them (the false prophets) by their fruits (vs.20). Jesus will say unto them "Depart from ye, I never knew you."
DHK

 

Adam: I think it is important to put this verse in some context. It’s talking about being saved at the end of the world. This would be a sort of baptism of desire with no opportunity to do all Jesus Christ and the gospel has commanded, such as baptism.

The words, " And it shall come to pass" is important here. There is a change in normal procedure going to happen, when there is no more time to observe His teachings. In His mercy He will save whoever calls on His name. This is a prophecy of things to come, not normal salvation by Grace.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]That's a butchering of Scripture if I ever saw one. Peter is quoting from the Book of Joel chapter two. It is a prophecy, but Old Testament prophets often looked into the near future and the distant future at the same time. If Acts 2:21 did have an application for today, Paul would not refer to almost the very same wording in Romans 10:9,13.
In Acts 2:18 there was a partial fulfillment of that verse on the Day of Pentecost, and thus verse 21 also was fulfilled that whoso should call on his name should be saved.

Verses 19 and 20, as the context in Joel also indicates are yet to come, and will come when the Great Tribulation comes, when the antichrist shall be revealed. I believe that will happen after the rapture will take place, and before the thousand year reign of Christ called the millennium.
DHK

 

DHK: You condemn many people here who "Call on the name of the Lord." every day of their lives, because you don't like certain things they believe in. You are not being consistent.

Romans 10 is talking about the importance of pastors to spread the Gospel____the whole gospel, “the word of faith which we are preaching”, so people can “Call on the name of the Lord” and be saved.

Read the Great Commission___go out baptize and teach all He has commanded. Everyday “calling on the name of the Lord” does not exclude turning our hearts toward God, repenting of our sins, obedience to baptism, and living with the spirit of Christ in us. These are not human works but the work of God in us when He calls us. The whole gospel must be taught, and believed, not just to call Jesus’ name.


Romans 10:8
But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 10:11
For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

Romans 10:13
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Romans 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15
How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS !"


God Bless

[ July 26, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

God Bless

 

DHK,

If Jesus was only talking about false prophets and teachers then why does he say "but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter" and "DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS"?

Jesus does not say "those who teach...", Jesus says "those who practice".