No More Politically Correct Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by baptistblogger, Dec 19, 2006.

  1. baptistblogger

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    I have perused this board now without posting for the last several months. I am willing to say that I enjoyed most of the exchanges that I have read. It is always good to take in another person's view in order to expand your own understanding. I find that the benefit of studying theology, from the undergraduate level all the way through the PhD level, has been that it has allowed me to better appreciate what I believed and to be able to better appreciate what others believe. Most believe something without any notion of why they believe what they believe. Bible believing Christians say they believe the Bible. When asked what the Bible is, they say it is what we believe. Round and round we go in our various debates about what the Bible teaches. Yet seldom do we appreciate what others have to say and yet still since we ourselves mostly do not know why believe what we do, we surely never venture to try and understand what others believe much less why they believe what they do.

    In this thread, I would like for you to tell me not only what you believe but why you believe what you believe.

    For starters let's deal with the most important topic of any that I can imagine that we could discuss. I would like for you to tell me why you think Jesus died on the cross. Why was it necessary for Jesus to die on the cross?
     
  2. Helen

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    Because that is how God chose to satisfy eternal justice on our behalf.
     
  3. baptistblogger

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    Thanks for such a prompt rely Helen. That is what you believe, but I also want to know why you believe what you do.
     
  4. JonC

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    I believe that Christ’s death on the cross was necessary to fulfill Gods plan. God has established His law. If we were able to abide by the Law, we would be righteous, however we can not. We are righteous only by the faith we have in Christ (as was Abraham and David). Natural man rightly deserves Gods wrath, it is only through Him we are delivered and made new beings spiritually.

    I think that in the Old Testament, the sacrificial atonement was a demonstration of faith in what was to come. Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection fulfills the Law, and is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. It also demonstrates the love of God for man.

    I haven’t studied theology so forgive me if I can’t phrase it just right. I am looking forward to reading responses to this thread.

    John
     
  5. Jarthur001

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    This should be a good thread...

    Cur Deus Homo?

    A great thought for this time of year. Why God Man? To die for his people.

    Christ died to save sinners.

    ****


    FROM....The wrath of a holy God

    From...The slave market of sin
    Because…It was the will of God.



    In Christ....James

    ADDED...

    This was not asked in the OP, but I want to add this. This was the plan of God, and it worked!!!
     
    #5 Jarthur001, Dec 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2006
  6. StraightAndNarrow

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    What do you mean by politically correct theology and why do you believe it exists?
     
  7. Hanna

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    In old testement times God required a blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sins of the people. People sacrificed a perfect lamb, without blemish.

    Christ is The Lamb of God and He sacrificed Him to atone for our sins.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. I believe Jesus died on the cross because the Bible says he did. I believe the Bible to be the true Word of God by faith.

    2. It was necessary because it was the will of God. This, likewise, is taught in the Bible, and accepted by me by faith.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. baptistblogger

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    I am going to use Joseph's answer as an example for why I am asking this question. Joseph, I have no doubt that you believe the Bible. I have no doubt that you are sincere in your belief. But what concerns me is the circular nature of your logic. Take for example, your first answer states that you believe Jesus died on the cross because the Bible says he did. Then you follow that assertion with a separate assertion that you believe the Bible to be the true Word of God by faith. If you go back and look at my OP you will find that this logic is the type of logic that I am wanting to go beyond. I offered the typical statement that we believe the Bible and what is the Bible when asked, "It is what we believe." Moreover I did not ask you if you believed Jesus died on the cross, I asked you why he died on the cross. No offense is intended here, I am really wanting you to share with me the essence of what you believe about the passion of Christ and your reason for believing what you do.

    StraightAndNarrow asked a poignant question when he asked me to define what I mean by politically correct theology. Let me hold off at this point as to why I believe it exists. One could say that I am wanting to get beyond dogmatic rhetoric and get down to heart felt vulnerability. We mostly do not know each other in here. I would think that you have all the anonymity that you need to be honest. If you do not know why you believe what you do then that is okay. I served as a youth pastor along the way. While serving as a youth pastor I told my youth I am not nearly as concerned that you know what you believe as that you know why you believe what you do.

    Paul said "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

    Why was Paul so passionate about the passion of Christ? There must be something substantial to the work of Christ on the cross. So what is the substance of what you believe and why do you believe it?
     
  10. MB

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    The reason any of us believe in Jesus Christ is because of the works of God. We couldn't even know of Him with out these works. Besides the bible being preached to us so that we can know, His Spirit also works to convince us of Jesus Christ. Men don't generally seek God unless they know of God. The conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit got my attention. Not that I didn't have a conscience to do this but His conviction seems more intense. My self I had reached a point somewhere in the bottom of the lower parts of my life when I was first made to look at my life and sins. Being convicted and being convinced of Christ is why I believe.
    Christ died on the cross to satisfy the justice of God. Sin first enetered the world by one man and by one man are many saved. Someone had to pay the penality for our sins. The wages of sin is death. Because Christ is blameless and the Son Of God could take the sins of the whole world on Him Self and die our death for us. This was planned I believe by God but at the same time it all required the willing submission of Christ to do it. God didn't cruxify His own Son. His Son willingly laid down His life for us because He loves us.
    MB
     
  11. baptistblogger

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    MB thanks for the openness. You kind of shared why you believe what you do before you shared what you actually believed. This is fun though. The nature of this discussion is personal for everyone. We all are entitled to our beliefs. The reason I have asked for this discussion is because I think that expressing what you believe and then explaining why you believe what you do is very difficult. But I am also convinced that we need to be able to give an explanation for why we believe what we do. Another way of wording the question in the OP could have been to tell me what you believe and why I should believe like you do.
     
  12. av1611jim

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    I disagree. God DID crucify his own Son.
    Isa 53:4
    ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    God , who is Sovereign, provided HIMSELF as a sacrifice for our sin.
    Abraham speaking prophetically said;
    Ge 22:8
    And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    Why did Jesus die on the Cross? Because only He could. No man could satisfy the infinite justice of our infinite God except an infinite man. The man Christ Jesus.

    God created mankind knowing we would fall. (Some will not like this) So God also designed the plan to satisfy his justice. God HIMSELF took the penalty because ultimately HE is responsible for it. No. He is NOT the Author of sin. But YES He is responsible for it. Either God is Sovereign or He is not. If He is then ultimately He is responsible for everything done in His creation, since He KNEW what would transpire and He did it anyway.

    Therefore; why did Jesus have to die? Because it was God's responsibility to satisfy His own justice. Now that it is done, mankind has no excuse.

    Ye MUST be born again.
     
  13. JonC

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    I think that Christ died of His will, but it was also the will of God. Jesus gave himself on the cross, and God also sacrificed His Son.

    I believe and accept it because I know it to be true by the revelation of God. We believe through faith.

    If I were asked why, in God’s omnipotence, He created man (knowing man would fall), the Law, and fulfillment of the Law through Christ’s death and resurrection, I wouldn’t have a good answer.
     
  14. menageriekeeper

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    Why Christ died?

    Because the Bible says: "For without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin." (not a direct quote but close enough. I'd look up the reference but it's dark in this room due to my daughter suffering from a migraine.)

    Why I believe what the Bible says? Because the Word resonates with a truth that cannot be denied. Because: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Because creation itself shouts the glory of God if we'll just take the time to stop and pay attention. Because, I've tried the Word over and over and it never fails.
     
  15. baptistblogger

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    Since you were not born with this knowledge, I am going to assume that you came to this position by reasoning through the evidence of what you have now professed to believe. If so, then I would certainly welcome your explanation of why you have come to believe that Christ death was necessary.

    This is not a two sentence answer kind of thing, keep in mind that Paul wanting to know nothing else.

    Has the nature of God anything to do with why Christ died? Has the nature of man anything to do with Christ died? Could there not have been another way? Why was this way the only way? Why would Christ die for those who are by nature at war with the very one who created them? These are but a few of the more substantive issues that we must contend in giving a reasonable account of why Christ was ordained to the cross.

    Moreover, do you not have an understanding that is equally substantive for why you believe what you do? Why you believe what you do may sound something like a testimony. Why you believe what you do may sound something like a sermon. Or why you believe what you do may sound something like a philosophical argument. But whatever it is that has driven you to the point of decision, that is what is the essence of your belief.

    Let me share something about what I am asking for, not that anyone cared to ask but I do not want to keep harping on what I am asking for without being willing to give in return. I do believe that Christ's death was necessary, for several reasons. On the hand it was in order to address the very real problem of sin. On the other hand it was necessary for it to be God who addressed that very real problem. The problem arises from the nature of God believe it or not. God is by nature flawless, perfect, unchanging, and immovable. His character is immutable and unwavering. The Bible refers to that as holiness or otherness. God is in his own league. Can I understand that? No. Can I believe that? I in truth do believe that God is holy. Out of God's character or holiness issues forth principles or laws. These principles or laws are paradigms or axioms that are consistent with the very nature and character of God. Because God is holy or other then his character was mirrored or reflected in the very laws that issue forth from his character. The laws stem back from the very nature of God. Now in terms of those attributes and the aspects of the character God, they are difficult at times to reconcile. For example, God is loving and merciful. Yet, God is also just and true. His justice demands truth and punishment. His love and mercy demand forgiveness. How can God reveal both or demonstrate both at the same time and in the same instance? On the one hand if man is sinful and in violation of God's moral norms, then he deserves justice and punishment according to the just nature of God. Yet on the other hand God is loving and merciful and his mercy requires him to demonstrate forgiveness. However, if he forgives at the expense of his just nature then he is not being true to himself. One of the attributes of God is that he is consistent with himself or he is immutable in his character. Now this is where Jesus comes in to the picture. He is the solution to man's problem of sin. Christ is a sufficient atonement for all who would believe. This atonement satisfies the wrath of God and deals out justice. This atonement also makes possible forgiveness without compromising the just nature of God. Now why I believe this is a relatively long story. Yet, for now I will tell you that I believe this because the evidence points in that direction. I am convinced through the power of persuasion that God has revealed himself to us through the Bible. Based on my own investigation of the truth claims of the Bible, I have found them to be trustworthy on a number of levels. I am also persuaded by the personal testimony of others who have come to the same conclusion. I am ultimately persuaded through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The very things that the Bible speaks of have come to life in my own time through faith in the risen Savior.
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. I answered the why question...read it for yourself. But you are right that I did misunderstand the why question at first. I did, however, make up for it by understanding the necesity question. I just did not realize they were the same questions.

    2. I have no need of any other reason beyond faith. The passion of Christ was doing the will of God. I believe this because he spent his whole life doing just that.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    There is only one reason you should believe like I do, and that is because God has opened your mind to the truth of God and through his grace, brought you to faith in Jesus Christ. It is a faith that is a response to the grace and mercy of God, for the Glory of God alone.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

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    It was not God's responsibility in the sense that he made the mess and now has to clean it up. He could have just as easily satisfied his justice by sending every single one of us to Hell and still been holy and righteous. It was his will, born out of grace and mercy, that sent Christ to the Cross.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  19. baptistblogger

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    So Joseph, maybe, if I were a Muslim and wanted you to please explain to me the reason that I must put my faith in the death of a prophet, you might be more forthcoming.
     

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