...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord", except...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Sep 20, 2008.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I Cor 12:3 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus is accursed'; and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." (emphasis mine)

    What is the Apostle Paul's point in making this statement? He isn't saying people can't mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" (literally), is he? Jesus said that many would call Him "Lord" in the day of judgement and He would say "depart from Me...I never knew you". Paul isn't talking about saying certain words, he is referring to being saved, isn't he?

    Isn't Paul saying that all who are truly saved, are saved by the power of Holy Spirit? You can't come to Christ, without the power of Holy Spirit upon you.

    The Holy Spirit comes upon you before you call Jesus "Lord", otherwise, you cannot/will not call Him "Lord" in a salvific way.

    Another question. If you can't be saved without the power of Holy Spirit, can Holy Spirit's power upon you be ineffective in bringing you to salvation? I think not.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  2. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,124
    Likes Received:
    319
    He can be resisted:

    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    HankD
     
  3. here now

    here now
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes Hank, they do resist the Holy Spirit and always will until the Holy Spirit pricks their hearts and then it is a done deal...NO more resisting.

    In Christ,
    Here Now
     
  4. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,124
    Likes Received:
    319
    OK, but now I don't know the point of your post.

    Saved or unsaved the Scripture seems to indicate that we are all able to resist Him.

    HankD
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Not only able but always will until the Holy Spirit does His work.
     
  6. here now

    here now
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hank, if we can resist Him when we are saved, then what are we saved from?
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    This is a logical fallacy. God's will and sovereignty is quite in tact when He is rejected by men in the midst of urging.
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the input. I'll look at it.

    peace to you:praying: ​
     
  9. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not by a Bible but isn't this Paul speaking to the Jews? If so, this passage is not about salvation as in the OP this is more about rejecting the Messiah and denying who Jesus is. He also calls them murderers for killing Jesus.
     
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not about salvation? Can you reject Messiah Jesus and be saved?


    Edit: this passage is spoken by Stephen
     
    #10 Amy.G, Sep 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2008
  11. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I got my lazy up and got a bible.

    Point made... Both of them.
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    :laugh:

    :thumbs:

    :1_grouphug:
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,124
    Likes Received:
    319
    Sin and death.

    However the Scripture indicates that we are able to sin after salvation and therefore resist His will:

    1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

    Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;​

    It really doesn't matter, saved, unsaved, jew, gentile, male, female, no one can go outside the boundaries of the sovereignty of God.​

    But then, if we are able to resist Him then that fact (resistance) somehow must be within those boundaries.​

    So therefore if someone seems to fail of the grace of God because of their resistance then that resistance is within those boundaries.​

    Once entering into His rest however there is the exception given in Scripture OSAS:​

    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

    Eternal life is the foundation which no man can change.

    But we can loose all "reward" and yet still be saved (so as by fire) by resisting His will after the rebirth.

    HankD​
     
    #13 HankD, Sep 21, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
  14. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're right. Paul isn't saying that people can't "mouth these words." But neither is He saying that one must be saved to say them. He IS saying that anyone who says them does so "by the Holy Spirit" -- because they heard it from the Spirit. And this kinda nails down one portion of the gospel that some say cannot be "heard" by the reprobate. Not only can they "hear" the Spirit but they can believe Him -- and still not be saved (cf. They can "say in that day, 'Lord, Lord.'").

    I would suggest that what they didn't say was "Savior, Savior."

    The "power of the Holy Spirit" that you speak of is the word of God believed. It's the power to say "Jesus is Lord" and it (the word of God) is the power, if one believes it, to repent unto salvation.

    The Holy Spirit is the mind, emotions, and will of God seen in nature (Rom 1:19-20) and in His word. This convicting-convincing "Word" can be taken into one's/anyone's own mind, emotions, and will (spirit) and be "examined." Believing it would, I'd say, lead one to the "filling" of the Spirit where every thought, emotion, and will of one's own spirit cries out to God, "What must we do?" But the "Word"/HS still does not belong to the recipient.

    But Acts 2:38, etal. tell us that we must, under this power/"filling," "[r]epent ... in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." To my understanding, repentance comes from the baptizing/filling of the Holy Spirit -> whereby (chronologically and logically) we die -> and are resurrected/"regenerated" by His indwelling as we receive "the gift of the Holy Ghost's" indwelling us.

    You merely misunderstand what the Spirit's power is in salvation. You make the Holy Spirit's "drawing" a mandate for certain people when, even after they are saved, He is not irresistible. If He had the power that you speak of, then the "elect" would never sin, now would they?

    skypair
     
    #14 skypair, Sep 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2008
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, it's not me speaking of it, it is the Apostle Paul. I don't see Paul's reference to the Word in context.
    I think your incorrect, skypair, in your definition of Holy Spirit. He is a Person within the Godhead. He is not the "mind, emotions, and will of God seen in nature". I think that is a poor choice of words of your part.
    You are attributing words to me that I have not said.

    I'm not sure what "power" that you are claiming that I am speaking of.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just don't see how God's sovereignty can remain in tact if.....

    1. God is omnipotent?

    2. God's will is for someone to be saved

    3. God, Holy Spirit's work, is necessary for someone to come to salvation

    4. God, Holy Spirit's work, is ineffective in bringing the person to salvation

    5. God, therefore, fails to accomplish what He wills concerning salvation

    God, having failed to accomplish what He wills, is not sovereign or omnipotent in the life of that person.

    How can it be seen another way?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  17. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I agree it might be hard to see, but it is nevertheless true. God's wisdom and Godhead is seen in nature and in the word. The Holy Spirit is a Person though having no body unless He is enbodied in Christ or us. IOW, God's Spirit providing our personality.

    I would like to suggest you consider the exact opposite -- a demon. A demon has no body but once he "possesses" someone, he provides much of their personality (i.e. Judas). He thereby has "Personhood."

    I'm not either. :tonofbricks: What I'm saying is that the Holy Spirit does not overpower anyone who doesn't believe first. You seem to be claiming that the Holy Spirit "possesses" without any even knowledge of God, Christ, or the gospel.

    skypair
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not saying anything about "possession", that is a red-herring. I am repeating scripture, which says, "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit".

    Scripture doesn't say they have to "believe first", because that would contradict I Cor 12:3. If they "believe first" they are calling Jesus "Lord" without the Holy Spirit.

    The passage clearly is referring to the work of Holy Spirit in bringing salvation to a person. You cannot be saved (call Jesus "Lord") without the power of Holy Spirit. Can you see that?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  19. joyce

    joyce
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    no one can say "Jesus is Lord, except

    CanadyJD: God never fails, man fails, God is righteous, man is unrighteous. I had to say that since your one post has God failing, that is not true. He is perfect, He is righteous, He is right and we are the opposites of that. He wants a perfect Love from us, that perfect Love has to be free, we have to have a choice for love to be perfect. We do have a choice, we can choose to have Him as our Father, or we can choose to have satan as our father, there are two choices here, and only two. He does not say, "eenie meenie miney moe, this one I'll save; but this one has to go"; He watches us to see what we will do, if we search after Him, He will make sure we find Him. He will take a man in the bush, if that man is searching for Him, and put a missionary in front of Him.
    joyce
     
  20. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    :laugh: AH, thanks for the laugh! Caught me of guard with that one. Good one. I hope you won't mind if I borrow the line. :laugh:
     

Share This Page

Loading...