No Water in Romans 6:3

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Feb 4, 2004.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    The great Apostle Paul does not say that these Roman Christians were baptized into water but into Christ, or if you will, into the Godhead, namely the Father, the Son and the precious Holy Spirit. If you want to have context, take a chapter on either side of Romans chapter six and you still will not find one drop of baptismal water either for immersion, sprinkling or pouring. The baptism that Paul is pointing to is also refreshed to our minds in I Corinthians 12:13 where God says to us, 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
    Gentiles . . . '

    Some Baptists and other Christians have created in their own minds water baptism. After all is it more important to be baptized into water or as a new Christian to be baptized into God Himself who gives us the 'incorruptible seed' which lives in our lives forever. [I Peter 1:23] The Apostle John also dovetails this truth in I John 3:9. John says, that this incorruptible seed, the Holy Spirit, makes sure that Christians do not {poieo} practice sinning; and in this way, by Him alone, we are eternally saved through the Godhead.

    In college I joined First Baptist Church in Allentown, Pennsylvania when Rev. Wheatcroft was pastor there. The pastor who followed him, Rev. Rosser, seemingly every other Sunday would clearly suggest that Romans six had to do with water baptism.

    If a sinner is not baptized into the Spirit of God, no amount of baptismal water will save the soul.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  2. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    [​IMG]

    I love these sorts of Arguements Ray. Think a bit for me please. My wife tells me to go down to the grocery store and get milk. Now there is of course much more involved in this task than she has said in this short request. I have to get my coat, get the check book, get in the car, start the engine, put it in drive, back out of the driveway, etc. etc. There is a complete list of directions to the store. But the fact of the matter is that I already have knowledge of these things and so they are not neccessary for her request. We do not need a complete biblical treatise on baptism every time the subject is brought up. The very word baptise brings to mind water. So what is your point?

    Another example in scripture of lack of this is when from the Cross Jesus says "my God my God, why hast thou forsaken me.". Does anyone doudt that Jesus is refering to the 22 Psalm to fill in the details regarding what he means. No Knowledgable Jew would have missed it.

    I do agree that baptismal water is not what does the saving. it is an outward sign of an inward grace, namely the holy spirit coming in to our lives. Thus Peter in his epistle can say "baptism now saves you, not by the removal of dirt but by a clear conscience.". The Holy Spirit has removed our sins. Surely it is within his power to do so.

    Blessings
     
  3. Harley4Him

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    I always assumed that it was so obvious that we're to follow the example of water baptism set forth in the Gospels that there was no need to make it explicit every time. After all, it's the Letter[\i] to the Romans, not the Instruction Manual[\i] to the Romans.
     
  4. Carson Weber

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    The great Apostle Paul does not say that these Roman Christians were baptized into water but into Christ

    That is because Paul did not have this false dichotomy between water baptism and entrance into the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ engrained in his mind.

    Paul is engaging in sacramental mysticism. For an enlightened, anti-sacramental, 21st c. American, Paul can be saying any number of things other than what he is actually saying because the historical-literal sense of Paul's words don't jive with your unChristian, unBiblical paradigm.
     
  5. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    What is the difference between being "baptized into Jesus christ," or "baptized into John"? Both uses water, or am I missing something here? Why was it important for the Eunich to stop to be baptized if water is not the important ingredient here? And why does Jesus speak of "water and spirit" in John 3:5 for one to be "born again"?

    Well gee, the image of Jesus being baptized in the waters of the Jordan sure does give that impression, don't you think, Ray?

    Must it be the rule that when one reads of and hears of baptism, which means to wash or immerse, that water must be mentioned if it is water baptism? Is it not a given in the very word, baptism?

    On the other hand, can I also counter and say that to be baptized, where water is applied and the proper words given in Matthew 28:19 are spoken, that we are indeed made "as a new Christian"? The water per se, in and of itself, saves no one, but it's the application of it with the spoken words of baptism that the holy Spirit comes that the person is made clean of his/her sins and becomes a heir to heaven once again.

    We are all ritualistic by nature, Bob, and is one of the reasons why Christ took some of his own spittle, mixed with the soil and applied the mud to the blind man's eyes to cure him of his blindness! did the mud do it? Of course not, but it sure did provide a powerful signal to all who witnessed it!

    Is Jesus with us today? We have the physical evidence of the Eucharist, something we can see (through the physical evidence of the eyes.)

    How are we assurred that our sins are forgiven? God does not reach down, tap you on the shoulder and whister it into your ear, but he does provide the "man behind the curtain" in the confessional to speak for Him. The physical (sound in the ear) element.

    Water in baptism is the physical element we both see and feel to tell us that the holy Spirit has come to save us from our sins in baptism!

    While baptism does indeed, save us from the sins up to that moment, including the sins of our original parents, it does not cover what may happen if we sin later on. So what the apostle is saying here is, "we cannot sin" IF"we remain in Him."

    What if we falter and sin nevertheless?

    I would then introduce you to the other important Sacrament, one that may be exercised after baptism - Reconsiliation - per John 20:22-23. [​IMG]

    And I would agree! The water, in and of itself, saves nothing! But in combination of water, simultaneously applied with the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit" per Matthew 28:19 does save!

    http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/borna.htm

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+

    "…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

    1 Peter 3:20-21
     
  6. Singer

    Singer
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    (Putnam)
    How are we assurred that our sins are forgiven? God does not reach down, tap you on the shoulder and whister it into your ear, but he does provide the "man behind the curtain" in the confessional to speak for Him. The physical (sound in the ear) element.

    (Singer)
    You imply that only Catholics can possibly be saved then because they are the only ones who provide the "man behind the curtain".


    (Putnam)

    And I would agree! The water, in and of itself, saves nothing! But in combination of water, simultaneously applied with the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit" per Matthew 28:19 does
    save!

    (Singer)
    What............????
    Without any intent of the heart to accept the Lord whatsoever, Bill?

    I could administer your recipe to an unknowing passerby with my garden hose......and you say it S A V E S ?

    C'mon Bill.

    Singer
     
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    "(Singer)
    What............????
    Without any intent of the heart to accept the Lord whatsoever, Bill?

    I could administer your recipe to an unknowing passerby with my garden hose......and you say it S A V E S ?"

    It seems non-catholics lack the ability to put it all together in to one passage. If it is one thing it is not another. Thus if water is present and one says the words the Catholic must believe that intent of the heart is not neccessary. I do not know of any Catholic above the age of reason recieving baptism, who had no intention of being baptized. Catholicism requires that the catechumen be catechized far more than any Protestant Church I know requires such before entry in to the Church. Perhaps a birds eye view of the scriptures would help rather than micro management of God's individual passages.

    Blessings
     
  8. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Singer, that implication is in your own mind! I do not rule out that you can ask God for forgiveness directly, and have your sins forgiven. The problem is, how do you know? That comes from the comforting words of the priest "behind the curtain."

    If one has an intent to be baptized, then one is an adult or near-adult - with the age of reason - that would have one come forth and "repent and be baptized" as Peter calls us at Pentecost.

    Of course the adult who is baptized must accept the Lord! Singer, you know better then that, my having explained this to you several times, I think.

    Again. you know better then that, Singer! For baptism to work, for the adult, one must "repent."

    I don't think the passerby is applicable, Singer, in your over-trivilization of a Sacrament into something as profane as you have made it...

    You know, Singer, I am appalled sometimes how Protestants denegrate the Sacraments we Catholics hold dear to our hearts, and this is definitely one of those occasions! :(

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    I believe in God,
    the Father Almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth;
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
    Our Lord;
    who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died,
    and was buried.

    He descended into hell;
    the third day He arose again from the dead;
    He ascended into heaven,
    sitteth at the right hand of God,
    the Father almighty;
    from thence He shall come to judge
    the living and the dead.

    I believe in the holy Spirit,
    the Holy Catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.

    Amen.
     
  9. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    AMEN to that, Thessalonian!

    When I finally came to a priest and told him, "Father, I want to become a Catholic," he looked at me and said, "You do huh? well, we will see if your are really serious after a three months worth of extensive catachetical instructions. and even after that, he asked me again, "Do you still want to go through with this, Bill?"

    With tears in my eyes, I said, "Father, you know I do!"

    That was probably the most wonderful moment of my life, walking on cloud nine for months after that! The year was 1953.

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  10. Jim1999

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    Whilst in Romans 6, Paul is clearly talking about the believers union with Christ, there is no doubt that Paul is drawing upon the symbolism of baptism which indicates union with Christ. One cannot separate the works of Christ from the Christ Himself.

    All denominations, whether correctly or not, believe that baptism indicates this union with Christ, either covenentally or by symbol...it does draw from the knowledge of water baptism. To draw any other conclusion wold be a gross violation of understanding the scriptures.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  11. Singer

    Singer
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    (Putnam)
    Singer, that implication is in your own mind! I do not rule out that you can ask God for forgiveness directly, and have your sins forgiven. The problem is, how do you know? That comes from the comforting words of the priest "behind the curtain."

    (Singer)
    Putnam, that's really thoughtful of you to finally include God in the forgiveness process although you would rather confide in the man behind the curtain.

    You ask "how do I know" ?

    I reject your conjecture that any priest would Know anywhere near what God knows.

    Just hearing a man say my sins are forgiven is no guarantee of forgiveness. I might ask "How in the world would a priest know"?

    Have you ever heard of a priest saying "No, your sins are not forgiven"?

    The process itself gives way for freedom to sin with the Catholic system that is in force.

    Catholicism is becoming more foreign to me all the time due to arguments like you just projected.

    Singer
     
  12. Singer

    Singer
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    (Thessalonian)
    I do not know of any Catholic above the age of reason recieving baptism, who had no intention of being baptized

    (Singer)
    Then what was the baptism based on.....?
    Their faith in the Lord; I would hope.
    Then the baptism itself did nothing but become a symbol. Salvation came as a result of the prior "accepting the Lord" which is the claim of our
    non-Catholic society.

    Not so hard to accept....is it?
     
  13. Singer

    Singer
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    (Putnam)
    You know, Singer, I am appalled sometimes how Protestants denegrate the Sacraments we Catholics hold dear to our hearts, and this is definitely one of those occasions!

    (Singer)
    Then you need to assess the reliability and sensibility of what you actually hold dear, Bill.

    You might know that thousands upon thousands of non-Catholics are nurturing the promise of salvation without holding dear to their hearts; all those doctrines of man.

    Singer
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    WPutnam,

    I do believe in water baptism but I was only saying that Romans chapter six is dealing with being baptized into Christ at salvation, which is being brought into the Body of Christ. Just think God does this before the new believer decides whether he is going to go into the Roman Catholic denomination or some other non-Catholic denomination.

    You called our attention to the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip. Have you seen a good number of adult baptisms into the Roman Catholic Church? I think you will agree with me that just because the Ethiopian man went down into the water did not certify that he was totally immersed in the baptismal water. The amount of water is not the concern, but rather that the person is obedient to Christ in the matter of being baptized into the Christian faith. Most of the newly born Christians were not in the vicinity where there was an excess of water, and so pouring or sprinkling is clearly used in this observance. The town wells were available for the people but they had to come with buckets to gather the water for washing clothing or drinking. Obviously, the Jewish leaders would not allow a service of immersion in a municipal pool, because Gentiles would have defiled the pool, at least in their minds. Hypothetically, it would have been possible to immerse a new Christian in the Jordan River, only if the river was not to turbulent during that time of the year. No Scripture really points to this mode of baptism.

    In some liturgical churches the baptismal font is at the entrance into the sanctuary, signifying the first thing that takes place when a person finds faith in Jesus Christ; that person is baptized into the Christian faith.
     
  15. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    Do me a favor. I am going to show you what Catholic salvation is all about in a simple way. See if you can do the same. I could I think do yours for you, but, I will not be presumtous and will let you do it if you will.

    Hearing -&gt; Believing (needs to continue from here on out) -&gt; Repenting (needs to continue from here on out) -&gt; Baptism -&gt; Holy Spirit (beginning of obedience) -&gt; Life (in the Church)of obedience = Salvation


    Blessings
     
  16. Singer

    Singer
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    (Putnam)
    When I finally came to a priest and told him, "Father, I want to become a Catholic," he looked at me and said, "You do huh? well, we will see if your are really serious after a three months worth of extensive catachetical instructions. and even after that, he asked me again, "Do you still want to go through with this, Bill?"

    (Singer)
    Why would it be so hard to become a Catholic?
    It's rather a simple process to become a Christian.......3,000 in one day even!

    Jesus' Method: "Whosoever believes in Me"

    Catholic Method: Three month extensive Indoctrination
    :eek:

    Singer
     
  17. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    This is why it takes so long; people have to wash garbage like this out of their brains. I mean, not only do you lie about the Catholic belief regarding the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, but you must use a pejorative against the priest.

    It's counter-indoctrination.
     
  18. Singer

    Singer
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    This is why it takes so long; people have to wash garbage like this out of their brains. I mean, not only do you lie about the Catholic belief regarding the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, but you must use a pejorative against the priest.

    Not a lie, Grace; actually a reiteration of what I'm being told and an attempt to understand it. It appears to be a system of confession to another sinner (even the pope confesses weekly) and when that isn't available, go to God as a last resort.

    It's counter-indoctrination.

    Well that's brave; someone who is admittedly indoctrinated telling the rest of us to become counter indoctrinated. What's the next step...becoming counter counter-indoctrinated?

    Being indoctrinated from birth by a system not unlike Catholicism that preys on the common sense of individuals to the benefit of itself, I credit myself with the ability to recognize such cultish behavior when I see it. Doesn't the warning of "doctrines of men" scare you guys just a little bit?



    Singer
     
  19. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Singer, when I got through with the 3 months worth of instruction, I understood Christianity better then most, I suspect!

    Why do you put that down? Or are you one of those "easy believeism" types that only requires a simple "sinner's prayer" at some tent revival to become a fully accomplished Christian?

    Singer, from the earliest of times, those seeking the Christian faith were called Catechumens. They were under instruction into the Faith, that they would be sound in their doctrines and their faith. and if they should become martyred as many were, they were saved simply out of their Faith and the contents of their hearts -

    They received the "baptism of desire."

    But never mind, we have been over this before...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
     
  20. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    [​IMG]

    Hey folks. Lest we forget, there are two baptisms, remember?? With water and with the Holy Ghost:

    Acts 1-5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    Just something to think about.

    Tam,

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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