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Christ defines His own terms in John 6 -- best to use them.

• [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text in all of scripture in which the drawing of God necessitates coming to Christ - it merely allows for it.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text that says that "Drawing of God" cannot happen until you are born again or that it is the act of forcing you to be born again[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says that if the person who is drawn - does not come to Christ - then it is a sign of God's failure.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says "all whom God draws Will COME to Christ".[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text that says “[FONT=&quot]None can come but those "given"[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]So then in John 6 – we find the “definition” of[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “Given”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Part II
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• [FONT=&quot]Nothing in John 6 says “All Drawn” are the same as “those given by the Father to Christ”.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Noting in John 6 says “All drawn” will come to Christ, or “All drawn” will be saved.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Nothing in John 12:32 says “all drawn” will be saved or will come to Christ or that they are the same as those who are “Given by the Father”.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]But we do have this[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 12:32 “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I will draw ALL MANKIND unto Me[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 6:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]44 ""[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one can come[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Me unless the Father who sent [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Me draws[/FONT][FONT=&quot] him[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and I will raise him up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Obviously those who “come to Christ” are within that larger group of “all mankind” who are first drawn to Christ.[/FONT]

 

Best case for Calvinism in John 6 --

[FONT=&quot]Benefit for Calvinists in John 6.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]John 6 is a special case where disciples and other curiousity seekers are leaving Christ. While some faithful disciples remain.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]John 6 is a special case where Christ addresses those who stay vs those who leave and uses terms like “All that the Father has GIVEN Me”.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]If ever there was a place for Calvinists to camp out --- it should be John 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Vs 64 – 71 sometimes claimed as a benefit for Calvinism because it deals with the foreknowledge of God about what men would do in the future.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]64 ""But there are some of you who do not believe.'' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, ""For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.''
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, ""You do not want to go away also, do you?'
68 Simon Peter answered Him, ""Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 ""We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.''
70 Jesus answered them, "" Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?''
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The bait-and-switch [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in that comment above is that “all given” are “all drawn” – equating “Given by the Father” – with “drawn”[/FONT]

 

Reality in John 6

[FONT=&quot]Arminian claim for John 6[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Those who are “given by the Father” are the special case of those who hear – who see and who come to Christ and who believe[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]-- as stated in the te[FONT=&quot]xt.[/FONT][/FONT]
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• [FONT=&quot]The chapter starts off with the concept of the “whole world” and World is already defined “in context” with unlimited scope previously in the book of John.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
31 "" Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, " HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'''
32 Jesus then said to them, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 ""For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]gives life to the world[/FONT][FONT=&quot].''
34 Then they said to Him, ""Lord, always give us this bread.''[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 15 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]that whoever believes[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Him should not perish[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but[/FONT][FONT=&quot]have eternal life.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 16 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 19 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 20 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lest his deeds should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 21 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But he who does the truth comes to the light,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]The chapter starts off with that special qualified list of those who see and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]come to Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Believe – and does not blame the difference on God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he who comes to Me[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will not hunger[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and he [/FONT][FONT=&quot]who believes[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Me will never thirst.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]So that when we get to “All that the Father GIVES” it is already in context of that list of qualifiers and even repeats them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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  [/FONT][FONT=&quot]37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the one who comes to Me[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I will certainly not cast out.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
  38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
  39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
  40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]everyone who beholds[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Son and believes[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in Him[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will have eternal life, and I Myself [/FONT][FONT=&quot]will raise him up on the last day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].''
  
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[FONT=&quot]No Arminian agues “God has GIVEN all mankind to Christ as saints” or any such thing. The Arminian claim is that God “DRAWS ALL mankind to Him” John 12:32 and that not all DRAWN will choose to see, and come to Christ and believe. Not all are “Given by the Father” because “Given by the Father” is previously defined by that qualified list of choices on the part of the lost.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The DRAWING of ALL mankind to God – is supernatural and no man can come to Christ without that supernatural work of God that is done for “ALL mankind” John 12:32. All that the Father gives are the same all that are “Taught of God” – they are that qualified list of those who “heard” and “learned” and “Came to Christ” and are faithful to the end who receive eternal life.[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]44 ""[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one can come[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Me unless the Father who sent [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Me draws[/FONT][FONT=&quot] him[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and I will raise him up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]45 ""It is written in the prophets, " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and learned[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from the Father, comes to Me.[/FONT]

 

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[FONT=&quot]Big Problem for Calvinists. John 12:32
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• [FONT=&quot]They “need” a text[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that says “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]God does NOT Draw ALL mankind unto Him[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” – and there is not ONE such text in all of scripture.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Arminians HAVE a text that says [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God “will DRAW ALL mankind to Him[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 12:32.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]So Calvinists have to sort of make up the text “they need” via inferences and taking liberties with the text.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Classic bait-and-switch "given by the Father" being substituted in for "drawn by the Father"[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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• [FONT=&quot]Caveat: Arminians never claim that “The Father has given ALL mankind to Christ as saints” nor does the Bible say it. And Arminians do not say that all Drawn are also Given by the Father to Christ as those who will be saved.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]The Calvinist bend-wrench of John 12:32 that takes 'I will Draw ALL mankind to me" and turns it into "I will draw only the arbitrarily elect FEW of Matt 7 that will one day be saved" - revises the text down so far that it is tantamount to a universalist statement.

Because "ALL mankind" is redefined to be those only who are arbitrarily selected and will go to heaven. And so "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto ME" becomes "I will take ALL mankind to heaven"!! Because "All mankind" has been "redefined" as "only those that go to heaven".

The bend-wrench done to John 12:32 makes almost any statement - "Calvinist".[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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PT, I came into this thread with the intent of straitening EWF out about just who Bob Wills is, but I'll leave that for another day. Two things that concern me about your post above:

(1) If He is indeed conquering sin, then why did He not conquer sin for all mankind, instead of just an Elect few? Maybe not how you meant it, but this comes across as a low view of sin, and a low view of God. That the Alpha and Omega would lower himself and take on God's wrath for even one sinner is amazing love. He is exalted because he didn't have to do it, and none of us are entitled to anything from his precious hand.

(2) ......why did He not conquer sin for all mankind, instead of just an Elect few? Why leave so many (more than the Elect) in a damned state, bound for a Lake of Fire, when He is the irresistible conqueror? What glory is there in creating such a vast number of human souls with no intention of saving them from their own damnation? If so called free will exists than basically doesn't everyone have a 50%/50% chance? If that is the case, then why when presented with the gospel would anyone not want to be saved, why would anyone not want to spend eternity with their creator and maker giving him all glory. Yet we see in our own "Christian" nation that church attendance is declining, youth leaving the church, etc. You seem to indicate that only a few will enter in under the Calvinist POV. I beg to differ, I believe if not for God's intervention none of us would know him. That is what EWF has said so well.

But God, But God, But God, Praise the Lord!, But God!
:thumbsup:

 

I got this TH.

Bob Wills is the King of Western Swing. Click on his name and you will have 2:31 of pure-D swaaaaang. Wills died in 1975 but Waylon says he is still the king. Who am I to argue with Waylon?

Tom Ball was a Texas Congressman and lawyer who worked to advance Prohibition. The town of Peck, north of Houston, was renamed Tomball in 1907. Click on his link and you will spend 12 minutes of your life you'll never get back.

Sam Hill: a euphemism or minced oath for "the devil" or "h&ll" personified as in, "What in the Sam Hill is that?"​

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.

 

Thank you Padre, maybe it will carry more weight with EWF coming from you. But don't run off just yet, why don't you Stay A Little Longer :laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvX8MijgeW8

 

Breathes deeply

 

It was not intended to present a low view of sin and God, TH, and I'm sorry if it did. I've gotten tired of the argument against my side that somehow we present a weakened version of God simply because we believe God gives man a choice. In the alternative view most often presented to me, God simply draws people irresistibly into His fold, but He has only chosen a few. In other words, He designed the greater portion of human creation with no intended purpose other than destruction in the Lake of Fire.

To follow up on what I was saying earlier...I believe that more people will wind up in damnation than in glory, based off the words of Christ, and the apostles. The wide gate that leads to destruction sees many more entering it than the narrow gate. While there is a numberless multitude in Heaven, I believe scripture reveals an even greater number going to Hell. In the free will system, these people go of their own accord, having rejected the free gift of God. In the Calvinist system, these people never had a chance. God never purposed to save them, and in fact God allowed them to be with the express intent of damning them to the Lake of Fire. Somehow, in the Calvinist mind, that proves God's Love. I don't see it. That is simply not the God I see revealed in the scriptures.

 

If this is such a point of division, perhaps we should not interact. I could give you my testimony here but why, you or your camp would find some way to discredit it so Im not making an effort at this juncture. And personally I believe this very topic is a dividing line.....therefore my response has always been, you go to your church & I will go to mine.

But as my friend from Tennessee indicates, Children today are not going to churches like they once did. I suggest that they are tired of the bickering, the observed hypocrisy, the meaningless ritual & the lack of outward loving of your neighbor. I would like to suggest Martin Lloyd-Jones's book Studies of the Sermon on the Mount. Maybe in this Easter Season we all need to remember John 26:27....

…26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Im done here but I will leave you with this quote from the Lord, "Peace be with you."

 

What you say certainly resonates with me. The last few days I have pulled back from participating in several threads. Considering that we all have only partial vision, spiritually, I think we need to tone down our responses -- and I said "we".

 

I never intended disrespect, EWF, and I pray you didn't take it as such. Both sides of the aisle are guilty in how they cast the opposite side. I'm just as a guilty.

I hope and pray I would never discredit someone's testimony. I don't believe you would discredit mine, and if anyone discredited yours I would stand with you in opposition to them. We might not agree on the soteriological doctrine, but if you tell me that you have an experience of grace with our Lord and Savior, then it is not for me to try to say you don't. I apologize if I've given you the impression that I would. I wish I could speak for my entire camp, but I cannot. Just as you cannot speak for your side.

Children are leaving the church, just as adults are leaving the church. Varied are the reasons they are leaving. Some dislike a certain preacher. Others disapprove of doctrine. Some simply are not entertained enough. Others still see church not as a time of worship but as a social event. We are in the falling away.