Featured Non-cal view

This is all mumbo jumbo to me, you'll have to get an answer from someone else.

 

So after you choose which path to take, what does God do?

 

He allows the natural consequences of my decision to be realized. For example, I can choose to smoke cigarettes; I cannot choose whether or not to get lung cancer. I can choose to neglect my Bible reading; I cannot choose whether or not my spiritual health will suffer.

 

I saw nothing. If you will look in the top right hand corner of each post you will see a number. If you click on that it will open a new page with just that single post. Please post those single posts so I can be sure of the posts you are characterizing in your own way.

 

Adam and Eve chose sin - with sinless natures.

Lucifer chose sin -- with a sinless nature.

Fallen man is "drawn to God" as Christ said "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 - which even Calvinists will admit - enables the choice to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

No, and I don't know any non-Cal that believes this.

No, the acceptance of the offer of salvation can only be made with direct influence of the Holy Spirit.

Not over ALL, but certainly over some. If someone wants to lose weight they may choose to give up high calorie foods. A soldier may decide to give his life to save fellow soldiers. A woman may decide to give birth rather than have an abortion.

People commit suicide on a daily basis, some by voluntarily drowning themselves.

 

If the fallen nature "IS" enmity against God (Rom. 8:7 and "IS" is a state of being verb) and Paul claims that this is the explanation why all those "in the flesh CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:8 and seeking or coming to Him by faith is necessary to "please God" Heb. 11:6), then how is man free to do what is inherently contrary to His own state of being - seek God? Isn't that like saying man is free to choose to fly or free to choose to stop breathing?

For a man to be free to choose to fly would not that require a radical change of his very nature? If "enmity against God" is the condition/state of the fallen nature, then how does man act contrary to that condition without a radical change of what that IS? How can he will to choose to seek God unless that very CONDITION is altered, any more than how can he choose to fly unless the very CONDITION of his nature is radically altered??

Simply asserting the gospel is the power of God to salvation does not address the issue of HOW something that is in radical opposition to God and the gospel is altered as we have our explanation of that HOW as much as you do.

You must explain how the gospel only TEMPORARILY and CONDITIONALLY alters "enmity" so as to make such a contrary choice to what man "IS" by nature without changing what He "IS" by nature because such a CHANGE is called the NEW BIRTH in scriptures.

 

Man is more than flesh.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Note that Jesus distinguishes between the spirit and the flesh. His disciples in the spirit were quite willing to obey his commands and pray, but their flesh was very weak and caused them to fall asleep.

Romans 8 is speaking of man when he obeys his flesh. In the flesh he cannot obey or please God. That does not mean that in his spirit a man cannot be willing to obey God. Matthew 26:41 in fact proves he can be willing.

This is what Paul is describing in Romans 7:14-25. This cannot be Paul speaking from the perspective of a born again Christian as he said he was "sold under sin" and was brought into "captivity to the law of sin". Paul had already told us that a Christian has been made free from sin and the law of sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In addition, Paul never mentions the Holy Spirit in Romans 7, not once. So Paul is speaking from the perspective of an unconverted man under the law. In this state he was quite willing to obey God, but was brought into subjection of the flesh.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul did not hate the law before he was converted, he was a Pharisee. He tried his best to obey the law at all times. But his flesh warred against his mind and brought him into captivity to the law of sin.

Only when a person is saved have they been made free from sin and the law of sin. They are no longer under the law, but under grace.

 

No, both are equally inherent aspects of nature that are either present or absent due to the condition of nature.

The will provides no ability to fly and so choice to do so is mute because the inability to fly is not a problem of will but a problem of physical ability. However, in the case of "enmity" the problem of inability is the will as the very term "mind" in Romans 8:7 refers to the "mind set" or the will in action. So what reverses this negative action of the will toward God from "enmity against God" to submission to God? That is the nature of change which is necessary to reverse the inclination of the will from "against" God to "for" God.

There is "none that seeketh after God, no, not one" - so that is Paul's view not merely my view.

I was merely responding to how you used both in your previous post. This is not my view. Now, you are making distinctions you previously did not make in your previous post. I agree the two are not compatible.

Because the problem of the fallen nature responding positively to God involves the inclination of the will. In fallen man the "mind set" or the will in action "IS" enmity against God (Rom. 8:7) and that is Paul's explanation why those "in the flesh CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:8) and do not "seek" God (Rom. 3:12) because of what fallen man "IS" rather than what he DOES.

So the fundemental problem of Arminianism is that seeking God can only occur by changing what fallen man "IS" in regard to the inclination of his will, which is "enmity AGAINST God." As long as the human will 'IS" against God due to enmity there can be no willing submission to God, seeking God or desire to "please God" (Rom. 8:8).

The problem of inability in regard to flying is a PHYSICAL inability. In order for man to fly there must be a radical change in his PHYSICAL nature. In regard to seeking (willingness to pursue) after God or willingness to submit to God the problem of inability is found in the will of fallen man itself, which is "AGAINST" God due to "enmity." That is the "mindset" of the flesh which IS the will in action - negative action "against God." Therefore, in order for man to choose to seek or submit to God there must be a radical change in his VOLITIONAL nature which removes "enmity" that moves the will "against God."

You claim "prevenient grace" is the answer. However, no such language can be found in scripture. If you insist the meaning can be found in scripture in regard to the fallen mindset then you must provide scripture that clearly teaches that preveniet grace changes what it "IS" (against God due to enmity) to something other than what it "IS" but yet short of new birth change. Jesus speaks of only two possible options (bad tree versus good tree) rather than a third intermediate option that prevenient grace demands.

 

These verses do not support inability whatsoever, they simply state a fact.

If I were to say that none of my neighbors ever goes to church, no, not one, would you understand that to mean they were unable to go to church? No! No reasonable person would understand my statement to mean my neighbors were unable to go to church, but simply stating the fact that they do not go to church. You are reading inability into scripture when it is not there.

There is not one word supporting inability in those scriptures.

 

I do not believe God is concerned with the free will of man. Not sure if free will of man is even a part of the picture.

Why did God create man? Why did God create man in the image of God? Why did God make the help meet for the man from the man created in his image?
Was the help meet so required in order for Gal. 4:4 to take place for the redemption spoken of in 4:5? Does the God need for us to do anything to bring about his works known from the beginning of the world?
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20


Why before he was created, was there going to be a need for redemption?

Was he going to need redemption from himself or from some source apart from the man to be created?

Is it about God and man or is God through a being created in his image, man, doing battle with another adversary from which the man will be redeemed?

Would that by necessity require free will from the created man in the image of his creator?

 

You will find that Paul's statements are general statements, because there are indeed men who sought God in the Bible.

2 Chr 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.

This verse contradicts everything you just said, it shows King Jehoshaphat had some good in him, and that he prepared his heart to seek God.

This is the problem when you cherry-pick only some scriptures and build a doctrine around it, completely ignoring many other scriptures that contradict it.