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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by agedman, Dec 31, 2013.

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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Amen

    Answer me, Jehovah, answer me, that this people may know that thou Jehovah art God, and that *thou* hast turned their heart back again. 1 Kings 18:37 Darby
     
    #41 percho, Jan 1, 2014
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I do believe the Lord influenced King Jehoshaphat, that is not the issue. The issue is that God himself said Jehoshaphat had prepared his own heart to seek God, something you say is impossible for men to do.

    Calvinists love to quote Romans 3 as a proof-text for inability, it says no such thing. It simply tells of men who did not seek God and that did evil, but these scriptures do not teach that men are not able to repent and turn to God. That is the issue.

    The scripture I showed refutes inability.
     
    #42 Winman, Jan 1, 2014
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Would be nice if it did, but unfortunately, it doesn't. For as proverbs states the heart of the king is in the Lord's hands to use as He purposes.

    Jehu was merely stating that Jehoshaphat has "some good" just as the lies of Satan usually have some good.

    You desire to emphasis the "seek God" part in outright denial of "no man seeks God," and "the darkness shuns the light," and "no man comes unto the Father...."

    The balance of the Scriptures cannot be voided by a single presentation of a verse anymore than a single verse can a doctrine make.

    However, there is another matter that I didn't think to mention.

    The history of Jehoshaphat was one who was a worshiper of God as apposed to those before, after and around him.

    The word for "seek" means worship, ask after. It is used as one who frequently consults God in matters of faith and practice - just as any believer should.

    You are attempting to place Jehoshaphat as that of an unbeliever, and there is no reason to not consider him one of the righteous believers of the OT times.
     
    #43 agedman, Jan 1, 2014
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, my Bible says that God found some "good" in Jehoshaphat in that he had taken away the groves and prepared his heart to seek God.

    2 Chr 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.

    I will believe what God said, not Calvinism.
     
    #44 Winman, Jan 1, 2014
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You don't prepare your heart to worship?
     
    #45 agedman, Jan 1, 2014
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Why are you trying to change the subject?

    The scriptures show men who sought God.

    2 Chr 14:2 And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God:
    3 For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:
    4 And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.
    5 Also he took away out of all the cities of Judah the high places and the images: and the kingdom was quiet before him.
    6 And he built fenced cities in Judah: for the land had rest, and he had no war in those years; because the LORD had given him rest.
    7 Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side. So they built and prospered.

    See, if you only read parts of the Bible, you miss out on many things.
     
    #46 Winman, Jan 1, 2014
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    So, what is your prayer when faced with enemy on all sides?

    Again, you are looking through the eyes that present these examples as folks who are unredeemed.

    I don't know why, because the Scriptures are clear about the character of the unbeliever and the believer.

    Perhaps because you do not see the Holy Spirit as working the same way in the OT as the NT and therefore do not recognize these as redeemed.

    God did not change the way He saves nor the keeping of the saved just because the Bible was divided into two parts.
     
    #47 agedman, Jan 1, 2014
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Except for prophets, men in the OT did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Believers did not receive the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus was raised from the dead (Jhn 7:39).

    This shows that men without the Holy Spirit could seek God and believe.

    The Holy Spirit was always at work, even in the OT. The Spirit worked through the word of God then as it does now. God sent prophets to speak to the people, this is the work of the Spirit also.

    What I am showing is that the scriptures do not teach inability. Men were able to respond to God and seek him, it is shown many times in the OT when men did not have the indwelling Spirit.
     
    #48 Winman, Jan 1, 2014
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    NT believers (more specifically gentiles) did not receive the indwelling until after the assension, because Christ states that HE kept them.

    However, that is not negating the work of the Holy Spirit upon and IN the OT believers.

    What you are showing is that the Scriptures DO teach inability - though you don't recognize that you are making that case.
     
    #49 agedman, Jan 1, 2014
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I see, yet not none of those illustrations retro back to salvational experience or to soteriology. We only believe by the power of God, not inherent faith or inherent ability.
     
    #50 preacher4truth, Jan 2, 2014
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And so... is this God moving the heart in harmony with His own "whosoever will" Gospel in the Bible - or are you suggesting that this text can be bent to make God the cause of His own lament?

    In Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in"

    In John 1 "HE Came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not"

    Really?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #51 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2014
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    God NEVER is reconciled to man. The reconciliation is a one way street. Man is reconciled to God. God has no "lament" for the lost. That seems to be your own non-cal construct that just isn't Scriptural.

    This was written to the ASSEMBLY and not to the unbelievers as an invitation to "accept Christ." A total abuse of that passage and twisting into some non-cal scheme.

    You need to attend to two very important issues in John 1.

    ALL humankind are presented with light. It is NOT believers that turn to the light but unbelievers who TURN from the light the believers bask the light.

    The word "receive" is not a word of violence as would be portrayed by such English words as grab, take, lay hold of. But a far more tender, nonviolent word such as one who embraces, or greets the bride at the altar. It is a word of responding to, not reaching to acquire.

    The picture then, of John 1, is that it is not the believers who must turn to God for salvation, but embrace and greet salvation as they welcome the light.

    Further, it portrays the unbelievers as the ones who shun the light, who are not even able to comprehend the light, and have no fellowship with the light.

    Part of the problem with the non-cal presentation of the gospel is the distortion of the truth.
     
    #52 agedman, Jan 2, 2014
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And so... is this God moving the heart in harmony with His own "whosoever will" Gospel in the Bible - or are you suggesting that this text can be bent to make God the cause of His own lament?

    In Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in"

    In John 1 "HE Came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not

    "God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself... we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ BE Reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

    Until we read that thread on "God's lament" for the lost.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90797

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #53 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2014
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]God's Lament
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    [FONT=&quot]Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]
     
    #54 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2014
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:25,26

    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; Isa 53:6 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19 and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:6

    Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

    Another way of saying.

    But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22,23

    Did you make yourself free? Did you become, on your own, or by the Spirit of God?

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

    Does one miss out on the Spirit because he did not want it, or because it wasn't given to him?

    If it applies to your post, use it.
     
    #55 percho, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2014
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "the Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

    We can all agree that this is the work of the Spirit of God -

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #56 BobRyan, Jan 3, 2014
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    He did not say that of all believers, he said that of his disciples, except Judas, that the scriptures might be fulfilled.

    No man could possibly believe without the Holy Spirit revealing the word of God to prophets and teachers. No man can believe what he doesn't know. Men in the OT believed the same way men in the NT believe, by hearing the word of God. God teaches, men learn.

    It would be real nice if you could explain just how I'm doing that. You simply saying I am supporting your view is not a very convincing argument.
     
    #57 Winman, Jan 3, 2014
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Such a really silly statement isn't designed to engage response.

    Context, trumps your proof-texting assumptions.

    What exactly does the SCRIPTURES state in Rev. 3 that Christ is desiring to enter?

    Of Course! Who throughout the OT were "his own?" Israel - the Jews - the "chosen people of God."

    What did they do? They TURNED from the light!

    Did you not read the CONTEXT of John 1?

    Or is the non-cal view so totally false they must rely upon perverting Scriptures by proof-texting and ripping the Scriptures out of Context?




    Like I posted and you just gave proof - God is never reconciled to man, but the world (man) must be reconciled to God.

    Perhaps you don't see that distinction in that verse.

    Non-cal bias tends to bind and blind from the truth.


    I did, and frankly it wasn't worth commenting, but could be considered as a completely vain attempt to distort the truth that the non-cal might gain some imaginary foothold.

    The non-cal must as the ultimate focus exalt humankind into the final authority.

    That is the essence of the non-cal views and it is utterly false and non-Scriptural.
     
    #58 agedman, Jan 3, 2014
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Which takes us to a thread that starts with these Bible texts.

    [FONT=&quot]God's Lament
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    [FONT=&quot]Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]    [/QUOTE]



    While I can understand your need to run away from those texts after you made the hollow claim that such should not even exist - yet because these and many more like them DO exist - the hollow claim that there is "no lament" of God over the lost - simply dies a crib death right out of the gate so to speak.

    The point remains that the Limited Atoning Sacrifice and arbitrary selection doctrine in Calvinism makes God the cause of His own Lament - as HE states that Lament in scripture (scripture that apparently one Calvinist here does not want to look at or attempt to reconcile with Calvinism).

    This is the obvious part of the point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #59 BobRyan, Jan 4, 2014
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by agedman [​IMG]
    God NEVER is reconciled to man. The reconciliation is a one way street. Man is reconciled to God.


    "God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself... we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ BE Reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

    Here again pulpit pounding alone is not making your case.

    You "invent" the idea that I must argue that "God is reconciled to man".

    Not sure why you think I need to take that position. I certainly never said it - why do you even imagine such a "need" for the Arminian position??

    The Arminian Position is "God so LOVED the WORLD that HE Gave... yes REALLY" and that is where we differ with Calvinists who come back with "well no -- not really the WORLD just the FEW of Matt 7". So how does that get bent to "Arminians must think God needs to be reconciled to man"???

    It is precisely this "God so LOVED The WORLD" idea in scripture that results in 1John 2:2 "He is the ATONING SACRIFiCE for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    That is not the fictional idea of God "needing to be reconciled to man" it is God "in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" while "we were yet sinners Christ died for us".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #60 BobRyan, Jan 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2014
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