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Featured Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Greektim, Apr 23, 2014.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    /

    You don't know what you are talking about do you?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are commanded to teach and preach jesus to all sinners, to pray for all, .... in order to have the Lord out of His grace and mercies to bring in salvation unto those He chose to get saved!

    Since none of us know who they are, we still must pray and preach to all!
     
  3. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    But what you are saying is full of holes. Do you pray for God to effectually draw people or ineffectually? If the first, that's Calvinistic. If the second, then why bother?

    As for a Cavlinistic prayer, we aren't praying to change God's plan so much as "making our requests known to God" (biblical). And our request is that God will effectually change hearts. We can be consistent here. "God, breath life into their dry bones! Give them a heart of flesh and remove their heart of stone!!! Nevertheless, your will be done" (all biblical).
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Non cals do not think in terms of effectual or ineffectual. Neither do we pray in such a manner.
     
  5. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I think you do. You hope for an effectual outcome, an effectual wooing. Therefore, you pray hoping for an effectual "drawing".

    Or would you actually say you hope God does what he says he will do (as you believe) and draw everyone? If so, then you have the same predicament as the Calvie... why pray for something God said he would do already. Unless, you are hoping for an effectual drawing, thus the purpose behind the prayer. That is the only thing that makes sense.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Non-Cals do not believe in your "effectual" calling, although we do believe God knows best how to influence a person. A good example is Jonah, God knew exactly how to persuade him to go to Nineveh.

    I believe God calls and draws everyone, but at some point God will give "up" or "over" a person to a reprobate mind. I pray God would not give up on this person and continue to draw and call them.

    You see this in the Bible, when the Jews sinned God was going to destroy them, but Moses prayed that God would forgive them.

    Num 14:11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
    12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
    13 And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them; )
    14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
    15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
    16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
    17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
    18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
    19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
    20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

    God was pretty fed up with the Jews here, and was going to destroy them. But Moses made a very persuasive argument, that God himself would be dishonored if he destroyed the Jews, and that it would be said that God was not able to bring his people into the land he swore he would give them.

    God listened to this argument and granted Moses request.

    This just shows that all things are not pre-determined, that God hears prayer, and that prayer can change things.

    All this would be nonsensical if Calvinism is true.
     
    #46 Winman, Apr 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2014
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of us as sinners already have a mindset set against God, so unless God changes our mindset/direction, we cannot come to know Him!

    Need to have the Holy Spirit grant them new life, as in themselves, is just death!
     
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Could you please show the scripture that says these things?

    Otherwise you are simply a Reformed parrot.
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    So then, if God can do more upon request, God is not already doing everything he can to save everybody.

    Is that not preferential treatment?

    Does that not have God loving some more than others?
     
  10. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It seems to me that no matter how you slice it, you still have God not doing everything he can to save everybody.

    If he can do more in answer to your prayer for someone's conviction or salvation than he would have done without it- then he is simply not trying to save everybody with equal effort.

    If he is trying to save each one as much as every other, then there is no point in praying for him to do more to save the one for whom you are particularly concerned in your prayer.

    Hence, it seems to me, that prayer in the Arminian scheme is pointless.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I'm joining this thread late. I just remembered something I found several years ago, and found it in a computer folder.

    It's called the Arminian Prayer. It doesn't directly speak to the OP, but does indirectly.

    Here 'tis:
    I know, it's a satire, attempting to inject some humor into a serious subject. But the question is, how closely does this "prayer" reflect the Arminian (or non-Cal) view? If you think it over-simplifies, what, then, would be a prayer which does reflect the Arminian view?
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It does not over simplify the Arminian position, it misrepresents that position.

    (e.g.: “You provided salvation for every person” is universalism, not Arminianism. “Every person has the equal opportunity to that salvation” should have left out “equal.” The “freedom to choose” is not a “gift” but an attribute in that view, and keep in mind that many Calvinists believe we have the ‘freedom to choose’ but always choose in accord with our fallen nature. The idea that an Arminian would not be grateful for salvation based on the logical outcome of their theology is also incorrect - salvation remains a grace of God rather than man although our philosophical arguments will try to show otherwise).

    But...as you point out...it is a satire. Perhaps the topic of the satire not only applies to Arminian "inconsistencies" but also Calvinistic misjudgments.
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    What then did God provide for every man when he paid the price for every sin every man ever committed?

    What is it that God makes available that man can choose to accept or reject?

    Is it not salvation? Does the cross not make salvation available to every man?


    Why? Is God trying harder to save some than others? Isn't that just a watered down version of the thing that Arminians hate so much about Calvinists- that God is not extending the same offer to all men?

    It is not the same extension of the offer if he reaches out a little more to some than he does to others.

    Where did the attribute come from? Did it not come from God like all other things? Is it not then a gift from God?

    Calling it an attribute instead of a gift seems to me like a kid opening a fire engine toy at Christmas and when he says, "Thank you for this gift," you say, "It is not a gift- it is a fire engine."


    The Arminian is grateful that God made salvation possible. He cannot be grateful for the appropriation of that salvation since the Arminian himself is the one who appropriated unto himself by his superior choosing abilities (superior to those poor stupid souls who do not choose).
     
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Yeah, I suppose it is a bit over the top in a couple of places.

    But most DoGs will think it's funny.

    And most non-Cals will think as you do.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :smilewinkgrin: No, I actually thought it was funny...not as funny as the "daisy" comment (He loves me, He loves me not) a while back. I just think that it reflects more of a Calvinist view than an Arminian theology (if it were serious).
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :laugh: That's funny.

    Salvation and an opportunity to be saved are different things. I am only saying that the satire posted, and many of the critiques of Arminianism provided, do not deal with Arminianism within its own context. Just look at how often Cal/non-Cal debates go astray on this forum due to evaluating a position within the context of the opposite view.

    Your questions highlight this observation. Were I to answer them, we would not totally agree (from past experience I think that we both realize where the other stands and that we are for the most part in agreement). My "L" in TULIP is there, but doesn't meet your expectations - I believe that all have an opportunity to be saved, but that all reject God but for those He draws unto Himself. For me, the gospel includes all of creation that waits in anticipation and therefore even doctrines of a final judgment of the lost is Christ centered. This of course means that there are other issues of Atonement that we would have to discuss before we could even start a debate (our disagreement may be larger or smaller than appears).

    I'm not interested in that discussion. The only point that I was trying, although poorly, to make was that if the satire were serious - and perhaps even if not - then it reflected Calvinism more than Arminianism as it views their theology under the guide of Calvinism and arrives at a poor understanding of their doctrine (which, BTW, I also reject).
     
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The non-Cal or Arminian would answer YES, but if you believe in Limited Atonement, you must answer NO.

    Jesus gave his life to save all men. How can you do more than that? But in Calvinism, Jesus did not give his life for many men.


    To the non-Cal or Arminian, free will is an ability given to all men.

    Again, the non-Cal or Arminian believes all men have free will, so we are not superior to those who refuse salvation.

    Now, that those who choose Christ are wiser than those who reject Christ, the scriptures repeatedly show that is true. Read Proverbs chapter 1 where wise persons who listen to God are contrasted to foolish persons who despise knowledge and wisdom. But that is a choice, every man could choose wisely.
     
  20. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #60 Inspector Javert, Apr 26, 2014
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