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Non-Cals, what do you believe?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob New Member

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    That brings up a question I never thought about. Can we rightly say that God's wrath against the damned is satisfied? It seems like it isn't, unless you believe in total annihilation.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It can never be. A single sin can never be repaid, imagine how many sins we accumulate over a lifetime.
     
  3. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    I scored 64 %.

    This test is an example of how some Christians can misrepresent those with whom they do not agree. I suspect that whoever put this test together has little understanding of those they do not agree with. The test has nothing to do with Calvinism or doctrine.
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Dale, I made the statement about unbelief being the only sin not forgiven because of what Jesus said. I did not make it up.

    Mar 3:28 ¶Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


    The person who commits this sin has cut himself off from God. He cannot be reconciled. This sin is a deliberate hardening of the heart against God's Spirit who draws men unto Him.
     
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Maybe there is a difference between sin nature and sinning that we are missing in this discussion. :)
     
  6. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    So, in your view, there is a point at which there is nothing God (Father, Son, and/ or Holy Spirit) can do to save a person? Once they have crossed the line of the unpardonable sin?
     
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I would state no. There is a point in which God chooses to turn away due to their unbelief. Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Prov 1:20-33; and a host of other passages.
     
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thank you Allan. That is exactly right. :thumbsup:

    It is God's choice to turn someone over to their own desires and the bible is clear that He does this.
     
  9. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I've been mainly lurking on this thread, but the question of the unpardonable sin intrigues me. Better stated, the idea that God actually gives one over to his sin to the extent that he cannot be saved. Ahh, just thought of the word---reprobation.

    I think I'm right in saying that most of us believe in reprobation. Let me brainstorm here. So God, at some point, determines that an individual has sinned to the point of no return. He gives the sinner over to his sinful desires and no longer deals with him in any way. He no longer convicts this sinner of sin, no longer draws him, no longer confronts him with his sin. As I understand it, then, this sinner can no longer be saved. God has already consigned him to Hell. He will be unaffected by exposure to the gospel, unmoved by the pleas of the preacher. He not only can't be saved, but can't even want to be saved.

    I anticipate that one answer will be, no, God did not consign him to Hell. He, by his own choice, consigned himself.

    Which leads to a question or two. Why does God give one over to reprobation, but exercise long-suffering to another?

    Why would God come to the point where he will deny one a chance to be saved, but continue that chance for another? (I don't believe in chance where salvation is concerned. The question is rhetorical.)

    Why is is okay for God to consign a reprobate to Hell prior to a sinner's death, but not okay for God to predestine one to Hell from eternity? I do not hold to double predestination. This question is for those who accuse Calvinists of holding that view.)

    If God bases predestination on foreknowing the future actions of men, why does God wait a period befeore giving one over to reprobation. He knows he's going to do it from eternity, does he not? Why wait? (I don't believe that God bases predestination or election on foreseen faith. The question is rhetorical.)
     
  10. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob New Member

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    Assuming your rhetorical scenario is true, it is self-contradictory. If God's predestination is based upon his foreknowledge, it involves actual events. That means that God's foreknowledge includes all his own acts. He can't escape it. Acting before an event takes place, then, means the event never took place, and there is no knowledge of a non-event being true.

    But you've introduced a conundrum that all classical theists encounter and have just had to accept. If God knows everything, he knows all his own future acts. That's a common enough belief.

    However, if God can count (a logical assumption), and numbers go on for eternity, what number has he arrived at? Whatever number God has arrived at could be represented by the symbol "X". Knowing that number, you could add 1 to that number and have a bigger number than God's (X < X+1). That's because God is either counting (numbers go on for eternity) or he has given up. If he has given up, then X still represents the number he has arrived at.

    The answer for the classical theist, however, is that God's knowledge is different from our own, so it includes all his counting, which, logically, never needs to stop. So God's being involves both his continuous actions and his continuous knowledge of those actions. However, his knowledge never includes the existence of a non-event being true. God can’t have knowledge of his patience for salvation (Romans 2:4) if he never was/will be patient, any more than he can know numbers he has never/never will count.
     
    #50 BaptistBob, Jul 22, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2009
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Well, BaptistBob, I feared that I was getting in over my head with my previous post, and my fears are confirmed. You lost me.
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    This brings up a question I have for Calvinists. Why does God wait until minutes or seconds before a person's physical death to regenerate them? Why does God let that person spend their entire life, maybe 80 years in unbelief, having no crowns to lay at His feet?
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    That's a good question. I don't know the answer. But I'll add that to my list of questions to ask when we get to heaven. My list is pretty long. Might take a thousand years to get all the answers. You can be next behind me.

    Seriously, Amy, I'm not making light of the question. It's a good one.
     
  14. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Tom has already responded to this one very well.
    Of course we as calvinists believe that all are equally in sin at birth. We would all end up in the state of reprobation if it were not for election.
    I also deny active double predestination.
    I do believe God foreordains to save some and thus pass over others but that is just it: some are left in their sins. Others God actively shows mercy.


    One other question for you Amy, why did you believe and others did not?
    Were you smarter, better? Were they more evil than you?
     
  15. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    That is an interesting question we will never know on earth.

    I can't tell you the answer but I can tell other questions that share the answer:

    WHy does God not sanctify us instantly upon savation?
    Why did God allow sin to come into the world in the first place?

    I think all three of these have the same or similar answers.

    Ultimately all we know is that it is all for God's glory but we can't know the details.
     
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    It is double predestination whether you accept it or not. It has to be or else God is not sovereign. He has power both over the elect and the reprobate. If He "passes over" someone, it is in His sovereign will to do so, just as it is His sovereign will to chose one to salvation. Both are equally in His control.


    Yes. I'm smarter, better, wiser, better looking, have more money, power and authority than all those poor idiots who got "passed over". :rolleyes::rolleyes::mad:

    I really get tired of that question.


    Here's one for you. Why did God wait until my father was 75 years old and 3 weeks away from dying before He regenerated him?
     
  17. Lux et veritas

    Lux et veritas New Member

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    I don't think any real Calvinist would have a comprehensive answer to that question. But I do know that God does nothing that will not bring Him glory. Could Christ have gotten more glory from the conversion of the dying thief at Calvary than in it occuring just the way it did? I don't think so. That man's conversion testimony has probably brought more people to Christ than most full time evanglists.

    Matthew Henry said in his commentary with regards to the virgin birth, there are some things that are not to be explained as much as they are simply to be adored.

    I can't explain the mechanics of the virgin birth, but I believe it with all my heart. Neither can I explain the 'how' of of God's election, but as it is a doctrine God has put in His Word, I believe it. And by the way, even Calvin stated that it was a "mysterious doctrine", and that it had to be approached with care.

    If we only believe that which we can rationalize, then we have in effect made a 'god' our of our own minds, and made God to be no wiser than we are.
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Because He wants us to be conformed to the image of Christ. This requires our cooperation. It requires us to submit our will to His. This is an act of free will on our part.


    Because He didn't want puppets that can only respond to the master pulling the strings. He wanted us to love Him, which means we have to choose Him and reject all others.

    Love is a response of the will. It cannot be forced or left without any other choice.
     
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Of course not because you would have to admit that the reason someone goes 80 years before they accept Christ is because that person had resisted the Holy Spirit for all of that time. You can't believe that the Holy Spirit can be resisted even though it is plainly written in scripture.


    Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
     
  20. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob New Member

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    I've been waiting for the answer to a similar question:

    11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
    13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.


    The role envy plays in non-C theology is obvious. The people will reconsider and perhaps turn to God.

    However, it's not clear to me what role it plays in C theology, other than to make a more interesting story. Why is God using envy to save them? They've already heard the Gospel and rejected it. According to C theology, all God needs to do is regenerate them, but instead he is trying to make them envious so as to save them.
     
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