Non-Cals, what do you believe?

That's untrue. Your assumption is that God has given Christ unbelievers to become believers. But that misses the point in the verb tense and the overall theme of subserviency of Christ.

Christ is totally subservient to the Father and is doing the Father’s work and proclaiming the Father’s message. Those who believe it (the Father's message) are given to Christ. Christ can't give them to himself because of the nature of the relationship. Also, Christ does not use the past tense concerning the process. He says “all that the Father gives” rather than “has given.” “has given” only appears when Christ is looking back and talking about those who have already believed.

 

I don't have to "admit that" at all! You can't really mean what you said as a blanket statement. There are other answers you know. Like, maybe just perhaps the person had never heard the gospel until he/she was 80 years old. That is not "resisting the Spirit". How can they believe if they have not heard?

 

I gave my father as an example, who was saved at age 75, 3 weeks before he died. He knew all about Jesus for his entire life. What is your reason for God "waiting" to regenerate him?

It is clear to me scripturally and experientially that he resisted the Holy Spirit for all of those years.

 

I'm looking at it. The verb tenses are exactly as I described and counter to what you described.

So? Christ explains why eslewere.

You mean like the the OT saints? Seems like you're changing the topic. I was addressing why unbelievers can't be those given to Christ.

 

Actually you didn't mention your father as the example in the post of yours I read. You just made a blanket statement and said I would have to admit it. I pointed out that I didn't as there are other options to consider.

And as to God "waiting", all I know is God does everything in His time. A brand plucked from the burning is often a greater testimony to the power of God's sovereign grace than a child saved in his/her early years.

I'm willing to wait to heaven to find out the answers to such questions.

BTW - I am very happy to hear of your father's salvation and rejoice with you that the Lord did indeed conquer him by His grace.

 

Evern the most ardent anti-calvinist has to admit to some form of 'election'. They cannot deny that in the matter of evangelism and gospel proclamation, God has 'chosen' that not everyone hears the gospel equally ... and some not at all.

If God wanted to He could have made sure that everyone heard the story of Calvary. (He is God, after all!).

So the difference between the Calvinist and Arminian is not that one believes in election and one does not. They both must confess a doctrine of election, they just draw the line in a different place.:smilewinkgrin:

 

Thank you! It was an amazing thing! My father wouldn't even step foot in a church, but God led him to Christ by a nurse who was a member of my church, which God had led me to a few months before, which was pastored by a man who for some reason felt led to visit my dad (whom he had never met) about 3 or 4 times a week in the hospital. Yes, I believe God did it all!

Absolutely I believe in election. But we are elected "in Christ" who is God's elect. We become "in Christ" through faith.

As far as those who never hear the gospel, Paul makes it clear God has revealed Himself to all men through the things He has made even His divine nature and Godhead. This is not enough for salvation, but it requires a decision to made by every person to accept God as creator or reject Him. Jesus said:

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
Mar 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

In other words, if we take heed to "what we hear" or what we learn from God, more revelation of God will be given. But if we ignore it, even what God has given (His revelation of Himself through creation) will be taken away. So those that will never hear the gospel have rejected God the creator and God did not send them any more revelation of Himself. But if they had believe in the light that God has given every man, He would have sent them someone to share the gospel. I have heard missionaries tell stories of this very thing.