Non-Calvinists and Eternal Security

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Aug 17, 2002.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    I would like for non-Calvinists to give the specifics on how they arrive at their belief(for those non-Calvinists that do) in eternal security for the believer.

    Thanks.

    [ August 17, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. Dualhunter

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    Though I tend to hold views close to calvinism, I don't quite qualify so I'll post what I posted (with some additions) on your previous eternal security thread here:

    Jesus died once and for all, in contrast to the animal sacrifices that were repeated becaue they could not make anyone perfect, this implies that Christ single death once and for all is sufficient to make a person perfect in God's eyes. If the person is perfect in God's eyes, they ought to be forever accepted in His eyes. If a person could lose salvation, they would not be able regain it because that would mean crucifying Christ again. However since no created thing (that includes ourselves and only God is uncreated) can separate us from the love of God and God Himself is on the same side as the Elect, I do not see any way for salvation to be lost in reference to those under the New Covenant in Christ's blood. There is also the fact that eternal life is a free gift, and the gifts and call of God are irrevocable. Finally, because having trusted in the Gospel of Christ, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit who is a deposit, salvation cannot be lost. God has given each believer the Holy Spirit as a deposit, to get back a deposit you must pay up the full amount that was promised; if you do not pay up, the person gets to keep the deposit. If God does not give a New Covenant believer whom He has sealed with the Holy Spirit, eternal life but instead thrown him into hell, he'd have to send His Holy Spirit to hell with him which simply is not going to happen. God will give what He has promised to the genuine believers in Christ because it is against His nature to do otherwise.
     
  3. Sularis

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    Once we're in His hands - we cant get out. Nothing can, and if we could, we couldnt get out of the Father's hands

    Thus exists eternal security. There are more verses - but I figger a nice paraphrase should do ya just fine

    The only difference is how you get into those hands.
     
  4. KenH

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    So, in your view, is one saved by free will, but once he is saved, his free will vanishes? He cannot turn away from God even if he wants to?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    So, in your view, is one saved by free will, but once he is saved, his free will vanishes? He cannot turn away from God even if he wants to?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]If his nature is changed, why would he want to?
     
  6. KenH

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    If, in your view, one can be saved before one's nature is changed, then why would it matter if it was changed after he was saved?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  7. ScottEmerson

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    If, in your view, one can be saved before one's nature is changed, then why would it matter if it was changed after he was saved?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]Because saying "yes" doesn't mean that the person's nature is changed. He's responding to the enlightening of the Holy Spirit.

    (Still waiting for the Scripture that says a majority of people will be in Heaven.)
     
  8. KenH

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    But you haven't explain why a nature sufficient to be saved with needs changing.

    Thanks for reminding me. Look in the thread about "More People in Heaven Than In Hell".

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  9. ScottEmerson

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    Because the Bible says so. Isn't this a question that could apply to the Calvinist camp as well, since even "totally depraved" people (as defined by Calvinists) can be saved?

    The fact is this. Man by himself cannot be saved. It's not in his nature. It takes an enlightening by the Holy Spirit for man to be able to choose. His nature is still depraved, and still needs a saviour.
     
  10. HeisLord

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    Hey Ken,

    Thanks for encouraging my homeschool endeavors.

    Here's my list of Scriptures for believing in eternal life.

    Heb.10:10 -sanctified once and for all by the blood

    John 3:6, I John 5:11-described as eternal life

    Heb. 6:11, Col. 2:2-full assurance

    Eph. 1:12-14-Sealed by the Spirit

    Heb. 9:12-eternal redemption

    Heb.10:14-perfected forever

    I Peter 1:4 -incorruptable inheritance

    Romans 8;31-39-can not be separated from the love of God

    Phil. 3:20-already a citizen of heaven

    John 10:28- will never perish

    John 11:26 -will never die

    It is an unrefutable Bible doctrine, and I'm sure you will agree [​IMG]
     
  11. Sularis

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    To answer let me use an example

    Your a mindless dog, someone buys you, you accept them as your master, but one day because yer feelin frisky you run out of your master's house, knowlingly or unknowingly since you are mindless after all :rolleyes:

    Are you any less your masters?

    Is not the one who created Heaven and Earth able to find someone who has run away from Him, after accepting salvation?

    There will be those in heaven with nothing but burnt ashes - There will be those with Golden crowns aplenty. Once yer saved yer tagged for life.
     
  12. KenH

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    Are you saying that sanctification is optional?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  13. Dualhunter

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    Are you saying that sanctification is optional?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think Sularis is refering to this:

    If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet [Job 23:10; Ps 66:10, 12; Jude 23] so as through fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:15 NASB
     
  14. KenH

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    That doesn't answer my question, is sanctification optional?

    Ken
    Spiritual Neanderthal
     
  15. hrhema

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    I have read post after post on eternal security. I have read scriptures people have used to say a person who is once saved is always saved and I honestly cannot find this.

    To use a scripture where Paul said nothing can separate us to say a person will always be saved is ludicrous. Paul was merely stating that there is nothing physical that can do that. Jesus also was saying that no man(physical being) can remove a believer from his hand. No where and I mean no where is there any scripture that says a person cannot walk away from God and be lost. Whether this was under the law or not God himself who says he never changes told Ezekiel that if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness to wickedness his righteousness would not be remembered any more. Now we say those in the Old TEstament were also saved by faith alone so why did God say this? Maybe what Jesus said in John 5 might explain it: "Those who have done good will rise to eternal life and those who continued in evil will rise to judgement."

    Now doesn't that throw a kink in things. We said works or doing good has nothing to do with salvation so what do we do with what Jesus said.

    Scriptures have been given more times then you can count showing a person can go into apostasy, blaspheme the Holy Ghost, and lose out with God but these scriptures are ignored because they don't fit into Calvinistic teachings.

    I don't believe God takes away salvation from anyone. I believe it is a choice a person can make willfully.

    I have read scripture after scripture where people talk about predestination but I cannot get that out of what they quote.

    [Personal comments about Calvin deleted. As has been indicated before, this discussion is not about the man Calvin. If you wish to discuss him, then the All other discussions forum is probably the place (since he doesn't fit in Baptist history). "Calvinism" is not associated with Calvin per se, but rather with a set of beliefs about the scriptural teaching on soteriology. This forum is dedicated to the discussion of those beliefs. -- Moderator.]

    [ August 21, 2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  16. KenH

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    I'm sorry but all any of us can do is to present Scripture to support our beliefs. Otherwise, we have to get into human reasoning and that's not the direction to go.

    I know there are Scriptures that opposing views use on all theological subjects, not just Calvinism/non-Calvinism. That is why it is so important to take the Bible as a whole, using the whole canonical context, to arrive at our beliefs. By using just a few isolated verses or passages, we could arrive at all kinds of false doctrines.

    I disagree with your salvation by free will veiwpoint but I do applaud you for at least being a consistent salvation by free will advocate. [​IMG]

    Ken
    Spiritual Neanderthal(as a rabbi called Brother Mohler on MSNBC last night)

    [ August 21, 2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  17. Sularis

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    Alright here's the problems with your statement:

    1)Man is stronger then God - ie after accepting the family can walk away - and God is powerless to do anything about except toss him in Hell which he was going to go anyways.

    2)There can be no specific sin that causes apostasy-since all sin is equal in God's eyes - Thus according to your belief - everytime you sin -you've lost your salvation

    3)And if you can lose your salvation, you must then have to be rewashed in the blood of Christ.
    Thus you must recrucify Christ and put him to shame. Since obviously His first sacrifice didnt save you or change you enough to stop you from becoming apostate.

    Christ didnt die multiple times - He died once for ALL (sins, time, men, women, lil babies)
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    Reading HEbrews 6, one would have to conclude that it's not a specific sin, but a continual one, and that once He is rejected, it is impossible to be saved a second time. Your latter two points, then, are moot. As for the first point, perhaps it's not about God being powerless, but God resigning man to his own fate - since plenty of people go to Hell, would you say He is powerless to save them?
     
  19. hrhema

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    I do not believe that every time you sin you lose your salvation. I don't think I have ever said that. I believe we according to the Bible have an mediator the Man Jesus Christ and when we sin we can ask for forgiveness and he forgives us.
    Yet, I believe a man can turn away from God into a life of deep sin and in the end deny God and be lost. This is not God taking away Salvation but a man walking away from salvation.

    If asking forgiveness is not necessary then why did Jesus include this in the Lord's prayer?
     
  20. KenH

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    Because even those that are saved still sin. We are still living in unredeemed bodies.

    Calvinists and consistent non-Calvinists are not going to agree on eternal security because we have different views on soteriology.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     

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