Non-Calvinists: Best argument?

JOLM : The Lord has not 'willed' for all to come to repentance . He is not willing for some to salvation , as a matter of biblical fact . Maybe you can even cite some passages to which I referring .

 

What is free will, my friend?

 

Cowboymatt said:

and

Matt, thank you, thank you. You have no idea how I've struggled with this topic. It has been the source of sheer agony or me, to the point of having a crisis of faith. You articulated perfectly how I feel. It is a relief for me to know that I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

"Admit it or not" You must be assuming I have no choice.
You' re mistaken in assuming I'm my own teacher. John Said ;
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I completely rely on God and His word. If I have wisdom it's because He gave it to me. If I have understand it's because He gave it to me.
I do not interpret scripture as some do, I understand it as I'm taught it.
I realize that you most likely interpret scripture yourself and is why you thought I must do the same. Regardless of whether or not you gave me a choice in the answer to your statements I answered it anyway because your no choice situation is only imaginary.
MB

 

I don't say let's forget what they had to say but lets not try to build on their foundations. I say man needs to rely on God and His word and not what men of old believed. Other wise we wind up repeating the same mistakes these men made. Our relationship with the Father should be built on what the scriptures say, not what men say.
Men will never teach what the Spirit will teach if men will only depend on Him for it all.
MB

 

Me, too. At least I try to. I would never be so arrogant to say that I am perfect in this endeavor, though.

Me, too.

Me, too.

Understanding involves interpretation, so this one applies to me, as well.

Looks like we are in the same boat in our honest attempt to understand Scripture, correct? I just wanted to get that point across.

 

Not exactly interpreting scripture is man's way of understanding. My understanding isn't man's way, but God explanation.
MB

 

Certainly it does. What do you think "whosoever" means?

 

If I were to say, "whosover runs faster than the bear, will be saved", would you assume that it is possible that it is possible for "anyone" to be saved? Of course not, you would say that only those whom God is gifted with great speed will be saved.

 

But your analogy is not foolproof and arguing from an analogy is faulty argumentation (so every analogy eventually breaks down). The Bible says that whoever believes will not perish. Believing and running are very different verbs, wouldn't you say?

 

I'm not trying to say that running and believing mean the same thing. My point is that "whosoever believes", doesn't mean anyone can believe without Holy Spirit intervention just as the statement "whosoever runs" doesn't mean anyone can outrun a bear with God giving the gift of speed. My point is that John 3:16 doesn't disprove calvinism. Calvinism teaches that that whosover belileves will be saved. I fully believe that to anyone I preach, God may open that persons heart and cause them to believe.

 

But the Bible does not say we have to run faster then a bear. The Bible says that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Are you trying to say that God has to gift us with the ability to call on his name? Now where would that "gift" be listed in scripture? Just about everyone in the world has he ability to "call upon the name of the Lord" in some fashion or another.

 

John 3.16 doesn't say, whoever believes as empowered by the H.S. Perhaps one could argue that God woos unbelievers with his love for the world, and whoever believes in him will then receive the H.S. as proof of conversion. Reading the H.S. into the pre-salvation stage in John 3.16 is problematic because there is simply no evidence in the verse to do so.

 

He is not willing for some to salvation, as a matter of biblical fact?? Why should I site some of the passages to which you are referring? I am not even sure I understand what you were trying to say.

All I know is that you did not quote what I said.
Go back and look at what I said about God not being willing. You can find it in II Peter 3:9.

If God is not willing that any should perish then how can be willing that some should perish?

 

I have read Calvin's Institutes and for you to make a claim that you are a Calvinist is just making a claim out of total ignorance and trusting another ignorant person that what they say is correct. How could you even know what a Calvinist is unless you know what Calvin stood for? When you read Calvin you will quickly find that the so called Calvinist simply puts words in Calvin's mouth with words he never wrote or said. In effect being a liar. I believe that Calvin was a godly man and tried his best to walk with God, but I cannot even imagine him wanting the kind of attention that people give him today. To call oneself a Calvinist is idolatry. How could it be anything less. I see in no place in the Bible when one is to follow anyone else other than Christ. I am a Christian and agree and disagree with some of what Calvin wrote. If however you had read Calvin you would have also known that Calvin realized the pitfalls of his theology which I have yet to find a "Calvinist" who would agree with Calivin in that.

To say one is a Calvinist and folow Christ is to imply that he can follow two teachings. It is impossible to follow two teachings both practically and according to scripture. I am doing my best to follow Christ. I do not need Calvin to teach me his theology but rather I must study scripture. In no place does the Bible command us to study Calvin but it does command us to study the Bible.

So give me one reason why I would want to study a man when I can study the God of the Bible and His son, Christ?

All of scripture is inspired by God. Jean Calvin's writing are not. Why would I want to study anything other than the inspired version?

I think that is the problem with most cults and religious groups that go astray. They do not study scripture but the teachings of a man.

 

Noncalvinist

As the wise elderly lady said, "God don't make no junk!"

 

I could say the same thing about my understanding. But I would rather avoid such arrogance.

 

But you cannot isolate 3:16 from its context. Some understand 3:3-8 (esp. v. 8) as teaching the Holy Spirit's effectual call of the lost sinner. So yes, there is evidence of such. You may not agree with that understanding, but to say that there is "no evidence" is incorrect.

 

Arrogance!!!! Didn't I show you scripture to back up what I said. I'm sure you are mistaken about my being arrogant. You see it takes Arrogance to claim that anything at all is of your own self.
MB