'Non-elect?'

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. whetstone

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    By reading scripture, we see that believers are called 'the elect.' (Matt. 24:24,31; Mark 13:22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Titus 1:1; 2 John 1:1,13)

    #1 Do you agree?

    Those who are not believers can safely be called 'non-elect.' These are they who are people other than 'the elect.'

    #2 Do you agree with this?

    There are many views on election and how people are elected, but if we are in agreement on these first two points, I must ask a third and final question:

    #3 Can any of the non-elect be saved?

    If they can, why didn't God elect them in the first place?
     
  2. billwald

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    There is no objective test for election. All Reformed church members think that THEY are the elect.
     
  3. whetstone

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  4. Wes Outwest

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    What makes you think that God chooses the believers ahead of time?

    What is the work of the Holy Spirit if it is not to determine when a person is "belief ready". And when belief comes, to indwell the believer.

    Does the Holy Spirit have a list, checkin' it twice gonna find out who's naughty or nice, and pushin those naughty ones to become nice? Don't think so!

    The Book of life from the foundation of the world. Could it be that the book of life exists from the foundation of the world, and those who come to faith in God get their name written there in, while those who don't have faith are left out of the Book? Could it be that some who have faith, then subsequently lose faith, get their names BLOTTED from the book of life? Yes, the book exists from the foundation of the world, but the names that are in it were not there from the foundation of the world, except for those that God elected to their roles in their life time, such as the Kings, the Prophets, the Patriarch's and Matriarch's, those whose names the scriptures reveal to us, and Yes, the Apostles!
     
  5. Jarthur001

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    What makes you think that God chooses the believers ahead of time?

    What is the work of the Holy Spirit if it is not to determine when a person is "belief ready". And when belief comes, to indwell the believer.

    Does the Holy Spirit have a list, checkin' it twice gonna find out who's naughty or nice, and pushin those naughty ones to become nice? Don't think so!

    The Book of life from the foundation of the world. Could it be that the book of life exists from the foundation of the world, and those who come to faith in God get their name written there in, while those who don't have faith are left out of the Book? Could it be that some who have faith, then subsequently lose faith, get their names BLOTTED from the book of life? Yes, the book exists from the foundation of the world, but the names that are in it were not there from the foundation of the world, except for those that God elected to their roles in their life time, such as the Kings, the Prophets, the Patriarch's and Matriarch's, those whose names the scriptures reveal to us, and Yes, the Apostles!
    </font>[/QUOTE]wes in all my days..i have never seen someone hold to such far reaching, off the wall doctrines. some times you see one or too. but you come up with a new one all the time.

    i need to start writing these down.


    one...tread you were geting jumped on by others...and i thought..now wait..wes is right on this. i hated to post...for i didn't know what you would say next. Boy am i glad i waited....by the end of the day.....BOOM...there you want again...over the outside wall.
     
  6. whetstone

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    How do you eisegete this text wes?

    Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
     
  7. here now

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    Wes says:
    Does the Holy Spirit have a list, checkin' it twice gonna find out who's naughty or nice, and pushin those naughty ones to become nice? Don't think so!
    ***********************************************

    You may not think so but I know so.
    He absolutely pushes people from naughty to nice.
     
  8. whetstone

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    Thank goodness for that!
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Depending on one's persuasion, this could be read two ways:

    1. Whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
    2. Whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
    1 says the book existed from the foundation of the world, but the names get added along the way from the foundation forward to the present.
    2 says the book contained the names when the world was created.

    It seems one can base a whole doctrine on how one interprets this thought.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    If true, why is it that many remain so naughty? After All God the Holy Spirit is no more a respecter of men than God the Father. So it wouldn't matter who the naughty person is, the Holy Spirit would work ON ALL just the same now, wouldn't he?
     
  11. whetstone

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    You're asking the right question but your answer is backwards.

    God doesn't show mercy on everyone equally. You are correct- if the Holy Spirit were working on ALL people with force, they would yeild and be converted. But this is so- which is evidence that not all people are prodded by God in the same manner.
     
  12. here now

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by here now:
    Wes says:
    Does the Holy Spirit have a list, checkin' it twice gonna find out who's naughty or nice, and pushin those naughty ones to become nice? Don't think so!
    ***********************************************
    Here now says:
    You may not think so but I know so.
    He absolutely pushes people from naughty to nice.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wes says:
    If true, why is it that many remain so naughty? After All God the Holy Spirit is no more a respecter of men than God the Father. So it wouldn't matter who the naughty person is, the Holy Spirit would work ON ALL just the same now, wouldn't he?
    **********************************************


    Well, we'll always remain naughty to a certain degree. BUT and this is a BIG BUT, if the Holy Spirit has done His work on someone, that naughty side will definitely NOT dominate over the good side, not even close.

    And yes this is true with everyone, who has been blessed with the Holy Spirit.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    You're asking the right question but your answer is backwards.

    God doesn't show mercy on everyone equally. You are correct- if the Holy Spirit were working on ALL people with force, they would yeild and be converted. But this is so- which is evidence that not all people are prodded by God in the same manner.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Are all people prodded by God...regardless of manner?
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    And who gets blessed with the Holy Spirit?
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    How does the Pure and Holy Spirit of God do what you say it does? Does the Holy Spirit who is pure enter the sanctuary of sin, the fallen human spirit and alter the human spirit so that it is reborn? That is not likely because that which is pure and holy does not mix well with that which is defiled by sin.

    So God sends his Word to the one who is defiled by sin, so that through hearing the word, the sinner will confess that Jesus is God the Son come in the flesh. Once that happens, sin loses its control of the sinner; 'the bonds of sin are broken by the word of God' for those who believe the word become reborn in spirit. It is then that the Holy Spirit can come in and sup with man in man's own spirit thus restoring that which was lost through sin in Adam. Salvation becomes a reality.

    Even so, those who do not continue in the word of God, are like the seed that fell on weedy ground, their faith in God gets choked out by the cares of life...those other gods that man puts before God the Father. When faith in God dies in the man, man forfeits his salvation!
     
  16. here now

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    Wes says:
    Even so, those who do not continue in the word of God, are like the seed that fell on weedy ground, their faith in God gets choked out by the cares of life...those other gods that man puts before God the Father. When faith in God dies in the man, man forfeits his salvation!
    *************************************************

    While it is true that sometimes people do get caught up in their lives and it may SEEM that their faith gets choked out. But, people who have 'TRUE FAITH' do not lose it. Therfore salvation is NEVER lost.

    When I was first saved, I could NOT put my Bible down. This went on for a very long time.
    Then I went through a period when I never picked my Bible up.
    Now I am right back to not getting enough of the Word.

    But, there has never been a moment when I LOST my faith or doubted my salvation.

    God says that I have Eternal Life, and by golly if I can lose something that God says IS ETERNAL, that would make Him a Liar. AND I KNOW BETTER THAN THAT. GOD IS NO LIAR.
     

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