Not 5-point C? Not Saved!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AresMan, May 5, 2006.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have been open to so-called "Reformed theology" as I have been studying the arguments from both sides. However, one particular Reformed theologian bothers me.

    E.D. Manard writes with a no-holds-barred, scholarly style. He is not afraid to use very harsh words against his opponents. In fact, it seems that according to Manard, if you don't agree with him (all 5-points of Calvinism) you are not saved! In his book The Grace of God that Justifies: A Biblical Defense of the Gospel of Free-Grace Justification (p.307) he begins by explaining that the only true Gospel is what the Reformers taught, and that anything that falls short is "another gospel". Here is an example of what he has to say about those who hold to "universal atonement":

    Ok. Fair enough. I can understand one not agreeing with the concept of a "universal atonement". However, he continues:
    If what he says is true, I know of only a handful of people in my personal life who actually are saved and the elect is a much smaller group that commonly accepted. What do you all think?
     
  2. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    As one who is calvinistic in my soteriology, I find that arrogant and ridiculously harsh. I have many many friends who disagree with me on certain points, be we are still brothers in Christ and we love the Lord and seek to serve Him together. This kind of statement is totally uncalled for and un-Christlike.
     
  3. doulous

    doulous
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a Calvinist I am not willing to make such a statement. I do, however, believe there are certain depths of Arminianism that do prove a persons profession of no effect. I am referring to historic Arminianism, ala the Remonstants.
     
  4. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    You can be saved and still not inherit the kingdom of God, regardless of how you think you got saved.
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    The problem with Manard's theology is evident:

    According to his thinking, there would be, as you say, only a handful of people that are truly saved.

    That being said, it would go along with the verse that says 'Few there be that go in thereat.'

    But if we look over in Revelation, we see a great multitude of people who 'have made their robes white with the blood of the Lamb.'

    No, one does not have to believe exactly like Manard. For one to say you must believe exactly like I teach, is very close to that one being a cultish leader.
     
  6. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that is a topic for another thread, and I think you are wrong. If you are saved you are an heir with Christ, the Scriptures are pretty clear on that.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was going to say the same thing. If one is saved, one is an heir and God will not utterly destroy him.
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hebrews 6:12
    12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    Inheriting the promises through faith and patience? If this is speaking of common salvation, is this not salvation by works?

    Colossians 3:23-24
    23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.

    Working for the reward of the free gift of salvation by grace? If calvanism teaches works salvation, that is fine. But call a spade a spade.
     
  9. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    James, why don't you start another thread, I am interested in you explaining your postion.

    Are you a Baptist Birder?

    I don't see how you can claim Calvinism teaches works salvation when it is lightyears removed from it. Salvation is soley based on God's grace and man has no part in it whatsoever.
     
  10. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would advise against trying to deal with James on this issue. It is his little pet issue and you will get nowhere. There have been a few threads on this already.
     
  11. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    I have to confess that sometimes I get to thinking that I was not truly saved until my acceptance of God's complete sovereignty - that's how profound it was for me. But then I back off and realize that the doctrine of grace teaches the exact opposite, that the elect, whether infant, disables, retarded, or doctrinally confused, WILL be saved by His grace.

    So I, as a calvinist, have to disagree with what the brother E.D. Manard said.

    There are all sorts of extreme opinions out there - I know of a web site where they claim that not only are arminians not saved, but so are all calvinists that don't join him in their condemnation. That's right - Spurgeon, Gill, even Calvin himself, they're all in hell he says.

    However, I still wonder sometimes about those that are intellectually able to understand the doctrine of sovereignty and yet refuse to receive it.

    I've heard and read many times where people, when confronted with clear bible teaching on God's right to choose, will reply with "I simply refuse to believe..." - you fill in the rest. My concern is with that "refuse to believe" part. Whose mind is closed? And how can a saved person REFUSE to believe something the bible teaches?

    I'M NOT SAYING ANYONE AROUND HERE IS LOST! So please don't go bezircks on me. [​IMG]
     
  12. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would advise against trying to deal with James on this issue. It is his little pet issue and you will get nowhere. There have been a few threads on this already. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh come on, calvibaptist, this is God's pet issue. The word kingdom shows up in 119 verses in just the Gospels.

    Matthew 7:21
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    I like how calvinism takes an idea and runs with it. I'm saved by grace, therefore I am elect, which means I am doing the will of the Father. In fact I can't not do the will of the Father. I'm a five pointer! It's no shock to me that Mr Manard thinks you must be a 5 point grade A homogenized calvinist to be saved, that doctrine has become his assurance. Irresistable Doctrine, maybe thats point 6 now? We can call it the I-Tulip.
     
  13. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I want to know is why does anyone care what E.D. Maynard thinks? I havent seen his name in the Bible either.
     
  14. doulous

    doulous
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not to be a wiseguy but that line can be used to say, "Why does anyone care what my pastor as to say?" In fact we can say that same for the B.B. Why should anyone read our posts?

    Maynard's words should be compared to scripture. If what he says is scriptural then great. If not, reject it and move on.
     
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    doulous,
    you a wise guy, never [​IMG]
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    So, according to Mr. Manard's doctrine, God, in HIs foreknowledge, looked down in eternity past into the tunnel of time, saw all who will be 5 point Calvinists, and based on that foreknowledge, elected each one of them unto salvation, thereby effectively bypassing all who were born before Calvin, leaving them to their ridiculous doctrines and sins and to the 'just' punishment of these doctrines and sins.
     
  17. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm curious. How many of you were saved before you ever heard of election, much less understood it? I never gave it any thought for 25 years after the Lord saved me at age nine. In fact, I would suspect most adults confess Christ as Lord without knowing anything about it.
     
  18. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not at all surprised that you went for 25 years without ever being taught the doctrine of election. I never heard a word about it in church or out of church, and I listened to teaching on Christian radio constantly for years. (I'm sure other stations include content by Calvinsits, but this one in NJ didn't.)

    I had to learn it the hard way, by reading the Bible and wondering why it didn't seem to match up with what I was taught.

    The local radio station here in San Antonio plays teaching from Calvinists like Sproul, Kennedy, etc., but it all seems to come on at 1am-3am.
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Everyone! [​IMG]

    I am not Calvinism, neither Arminianism either. I agree almost everything what Arminianism believe according what the Scriptures saying. I disagree almost everything what Calvinism believe accoding what the Scriptures saying.

    Also, I am aware of over 95% of Independent Fundamental Baptists believe in eternal security salvation samilar as OSAS.

    I do have lot friends as baptists, who believe in eternal security salvation. I have nothing against them for believing in it.

    I know many independent fundamental baptists who believe in eternal security salvation, are truly godly, love the Lord, faithfully to Christ, not because of believing in eternal security salvation, because of their FRUITS. No question, I believe MANY independent fundamental baptists who believe in eternal security salvation are in the heaven. Not because of believing in the doctrine, because of their fruits and faithful to their Lord.

    Also, I am no doubt that, MANY of calvinists are truly godly and love their Lord. Because of their fruits and faithful. Also, I am no doubt, many calvinists are in the heaven, not because of believing in doctrine, because of their fruits and faithful.

    The mostly important main for both arminians and calvinists are truly saved, base on their faith and trust on JESUS CHRIST only, no other else.

    I highly admire and respect Late Dr. John R. Rice. I know he was not a calvinist, neither armininian either. No question, I believe he is already in the heaven with the Lord. Not because of his believing in the doctrine of eternal security salvation. Because of his fruits and faithful. I did read his book - "Prayer". Oh what a godly man, he was!!

    But, I am telling you, we all must be aware that we all will be shocked and surprised in the Judgment Day, that we know many baptists(well-known) either are calvinist or arminian, will be end up in the lake of fire.

    Believing in doctrines are not important. God is interesting in us, that He expecting us to be faithful and obeying him with all our heart all the way to the end by at our death or Lord comes.

    I am NOT saying that doctrines of the Bible is not important. Of course, studying the doctrines from the Bible is important. But, God is interesting in us, that He expecting us to depending on Him all the times, obey and follow Him all the way throughout our lifetime till the end.

    I do expecting there will be lot of shockes and surprises in the Judgement Day, that I know many well-know baptists will be end up in the lake of fire. Even myself. I am fear of the Lord. That why I have to be trembling and working out of salvation. Because of we all shall face the judgment day before the Lord, to judge us. Judgment Day is NOT funny! That why we have to be fear of the Lord all the times.

    I notice many calvinists & arminians both have been debate, debate, debate on salvation issues with Bible all the times. But, these debates do not effect their salvation. Doctrines doesn't effect their salvation. FAITH does matter to effect their salvation.

    That why, we all have to look up on the Lord, because he is our Authority of the beginning and also, he is our Finisher. We have to do is, to have FAITH on Jesus Christ only.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Amen, DPT! Amen, Brother!

    When a person studies election and foreknowledge and all the other things that come along with it---one must remember that we are the "finite" studying the "Infinite"!! Earthly minds probing the mind of Eternity!!

    When I was saved as a teenage fella---I didn't know who in "Sam Hill" Calvin or Armenian was. All I knew was---the Bible says that I am a sinner seperated from God because of the fall of Adam and that the Lord Jesus Christ came from the bosom of the Father to die for me and that if I would repent of my sin and receive HIM by faith---He promised that he would save me and live His life through me.

    I am neither Calvinist or Arminite(sp)---I am a redeemed child of God---called to preach the gospel to the whosoever will's----and if the whosoever will's repent of their sins and receive by Faith the Lord Jesus Christ---He promised He'd save them and raise them up at the Great Resurrection.

    Bro. David

    Side note here for DeafPosttrib!!

    Now----if we can just get you over to the PreTrib "camp"---I believe we could make something of you!!! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...