Not of works?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by targus, Nov 29, 2010.

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  1. targus

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    In another thread DHK defined believers as...

    "One who has put their faith and trust in the substitutionary work of Christ, trusting him alone as Savior by faith alone, and not of works."

    Would members of a church that requires a signed oath not to smoke or drink alcohol fall under that definition?

    My point being that would not the oath to abstain from smoking and alchol as a condition of church membership be a work that would indicate a lack of trust in the substitutionary work of Christ?
     
    #1 targus, Nov 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2010
  2. Thinkingstuff

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    Good question.
     
  3. freeatlast

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    No not at all. While I am not in favor of signed oaths of this nature it has nothing to do with trusting or not trusting the substitutionary work of Christ.
    In my opinion it would be better in areas as mentioned above to just teach the people to live godly lives set apart for the Lord. While I neither smoke or drink, neither makes me any better then someone who does although I do teach against both and seek to back it up with scripture without seeking to twist scripture to make a point while at the same time making it clear that there is no direct admonition against either.
    That being said no less then Charles Haddon Spurgeon both smoked and drank.
     
  4. DHK

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    No, Salvation is faith in the substitutionary work of Christ.
    We trust Christ by faith alone and not by works (that was a clarification).

    Sometimes a church may have a covenant, an agreement wherein the believer agrees with the other believers (members) not to smoke, drink, etc. It has to do with their Christian testimony before God and others.
    Paul said:
    And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men. (Acts 24:16)

    My sins: past, present and future are all covered by the blood. They are all forgiven. That is why salvation is in the substitutionary work of Christ. He is my substitute. He paid the penalty for all my sins. Thus if I did commit one of those sins, the penalty has been paid for. I could never, never lose my salvation.
    However my fellowship with God would be affected until I confessed it to the Lord and asked forgiveness. Not my salvation; only my walk with God, my fellowship with Him. That is why John wrote:

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
    --This is written to believers only.
     
  5. targus

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    If all sins are covered by the blood - why are particular sins signaled out as agreed not to be commited?

    Why not an oath not to sin at all?

    Would a member of such a church be saved if they fell and started drinking after signing the oath?

    I don't get the purpose of it.

    It sounds like a work to me.
     
  6. DHK

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    Before you can have an intelligent conversation on this topic you need to study up on covenants. Give me an example of a covenant and tell me what specific sins you are talking about as opposed to what other sins.
    Maybe there is. How do you know unless you read the covenant? What is in a covenant of a church?
    No believer can lose his salvation. All his sins are forgiven.
    Do you sign an agreement with the company you work with?
    Works are good--pray, witness, study, give, etc.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
    --The believer is created to do good works. But the good works are not a requirement for salvation.
     
  7. targus

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    I gave you examples - smoking and drinking alcohol.

    If those sins are covered by the blood - of what good is the oath?

    I understand your church has such an oath - what other sins are promised not to be committed?

    Does your church's oath include a promise not sin at all - of any kind?

    If not - why only selected sins - since all sins are forgiven?

    Then why do you condemn Catholics for things that you consider to be works that are not a requirement for salvation according to Catholics?
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    It's a church's attempt to instill holiness. Maybe it's a feeble attempt to some, but it's not to all, who believe in refraining from these vices. If that's what they believe, then let them do it. I don't have to agree with all of it.

    Also, our churches certainly can use a dose of holiness and separation, and it being preached and taughtand exemplified.

    Heady haughty theological intellectualism has supplanted holy living in many churches.

    That's my take.
     
  9. targus

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    A church instilling holiness sounds like works - again.

    Holiness would come from God - not from a church enforcing an oath.

    Doesn't sound much like relying on the work of the cross to me.
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    Does the Bible sound like works to you, too, when it mentions it in the NT? How about when the church preaches the texts?

    Doesn't sound like relying on the cross? It sounds like regenerate people wanting to please God to me.
     
  11. Old Union Brother

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    I'm not at all sure where targus is going with this.....but I really like what preacher4truth is saying..
    and I might add...
    Does living a Christian Life sound like works?
    Does being a Christian light to you neighbors sound like works?
    The orders and precepts of God are not grievous to his children. I also think that the orders and precepts of the home church should not be grievous to its members.
     
  12. targus

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    Requiring an oath not to commit certain sins is very different than preaching the texts.

    What does the Bible say about taking oaths?
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    What does the Bible say about living Holy? However you got that mixed up and in opposition to real saving faith is beyond me.

    On signing oaths, refer to my "I don't have to agree with all of it." That should suffice.

    I agree Old Union brother with your last post:

    "I'm not at all sure where targus is going with this.....but I really like what preacher4truth is saying..
    and I might add...
    Does living a Christian Life sound like works?
    Does being a Christian light to you neighbors sound like works?
    The orders and precepts of God are not grievous to his children. I also think that the orders and precepts of the home church should not be grievous to its members"


    We are in serious trouble when preachers oppose and mock right living to the glory of God, and or equate it to being saved by works, and instead glorify our liberties to the point of overthrowing others faith, and causing a bad mark upon the church as far as what the world thinks about it.

    Selfishness versus selflessness is the status quo today.

    But, then we sing songs of total commitment and of total surrender and giving up all for Him. He's watching and taking an account of it all.
     
  14. targus

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    My point is that requiring a signing of an oath that promises to not commit certain sins in order to join a church:
    A. Is extra-biblical
    B. Sounds like works based salvation in that one is believing that one can be sure to avoid particular sins for the rest of their life based on their own decision
    C. Is contrary to Scripture since we are told to let our yes be yes - without an oath

    If one can simply not sin just based on the promise not to - then one would not need Jesus would one?

    Not sinning for salvation was the old way - we are under a different Covenant.
     
  15. preacher4truth

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    Not sinning for (to obtain) salvation was never the way. Ever.
     
  16. targus

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    So what good does it do to require an oath not to commit certains sins - if we are incapable of not sinning?

    It seems to me that it encourages people to think that they can cease sinning based on simply the promise not to sin any more.
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    I've already answered that to my satisfation.

    Where did you get this idea "not sinning for salvation was the old way - we are under a different Covenant"?

    I would never make that unbiblical statement.

    Not sinning for salvation was never a covenant. Ever.
     
  18. targus

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    Great - what was it again?

    It was referred to as "Keeping the Law".

    But let's not let that sidetrack the topic.
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    All threads get off track.

    For the record, keeping the law to you meant a person could be saved thus?

    I quote you again:

    "not sinning for salvation was the old way - we are under a different Covenant"

    That is exactly what your phrase is stating. I hope you don't believe this.
     
  20. targus

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    Thank you for focusing on the off topic part.

    I would rather talk about the topic.

    How does an oath not to sin trust upon the finished work of the cross?
     
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