Not prepared for tribulation? (no pre-trib rapture)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,670
    Likes Received:
    79
    If you’re leaning toward or strongly believing in post-trib, mid-trib, or any other Christian eschatological viewpoint that acknowledges believers will face tribulation and then be resurrected at the second coming of Christ not “raptured” beforehand; do you believe the pre-trib doctrine could be dangerous by teaching people they will escape tribulation and therefore they will not be prepared for the event and may be easily deceived into believing a lie effecting their salvation?

    This question is, Will there be people not saved during a tribulation because of not following their pre-trib rapture belief? Do you see evidence in the Bible that warns of this type of escape doctrine and commands for all people to be prepared?
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am pre-trib. I do not see souls being saved during the tribulation period. We see 144,000 sealed, but the Bible does not say they are saved. They are sealed for a purpose.

    Matthew 24 speaks of he that endureth to the end will be saved, but I think that is speaking of the flesh itself.

    I could be wrong, but I do not think so.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 is symbolic number. Both passages do not saying they are Jewish males only. Revelation chapter 14 explains on 144,000 more clear. It tells us, that they are redeemed from the world, and they are the firstfruits, and they are virgins. Clear, that means, people who are follow Christ, as they are Christians.

    'Virgins', don't mean that all men never have sex with woman. It represent as spiritual pure. Revelation chapter 18 explains more clear about harlot. Revelation chapter 18 commands us that we must come out of HER. That means, we must be virgin. As, we are commanded to walk holy and separated from the world.

    Matt. 24:13-'Endured unto the end', this doesn't refer to the future so called, 'seven year of tribulation period'. This is speak of our currently life between first advent and second advent, that it commands us, that we must be faithful all the way to the end - at our death or Christ comes, then shall be saved. OR, if we do not be faithful halfway in our lifetime, then we shall not be saved, go to hell. Sorry to saying it. This is very obivously speak of conditional salvation.


    Early Christians already faced persecutions, tribulations. Christ was not yet come int heir time. Why shall we have to face tribulations first? Because Christ already suffer and overcome them according to John 16:33.

    There is no promise for us that we shall escape from any tribulations, because Christ suffered for us, so, therefore, we ought to face trials, persecutions, and tribulations, and we ought follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 4:12-16.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
  5. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    14,418
    Likes Received:
    240
    I don't think it matters Benjamin. My view, your view or any view held by a true child of God concerning the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    If we are walking in the Spirit in obedience we should be prepared for anything regardless of the view of His return.

    In Chapters 2-3 of the Revelation there are 7 promises to the churches for those who "overcome".

    Then...

    1 John 2
    14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
    18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists. whereby we know that it is the last time.

    Antichrist is already here (in the persons of his emissaries).

    We are in the world but not of the world. As far as God is concerned, we are already "raptured" (so to speak) and presently sit in the heavenly places with Christ.

    Ephesians 2
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    HankD
     
  6. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    63
    I think once the man of lawlessness (2 Thess 2:3) is revealed, our pre-trib brothers and sisters will realize there is no pre-trib rapture, and they will adjust. I doubt that such a view would make one less likely to be saved.
     
  7. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So then Christ's return is not imminent...as we have to wait for the revealing of the antichrist. All throughout Scripture we are taught that Christ can come at any moment. This cannot be true if we will see the antichrist come into power. I will keep my eye open for Christ's return...everyone else can wait for the antichrist's revealing!

    BTW, what is the point of the church going through the tribulation? God's wrath is not reserved for us! If we have a Father / child relationship, or even a Bridegroom / Bride relationship with the Lord, why would He subject His children / brides to the tribulation?
     
  9. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    14,418
    Likes Received:
    240
    Hi Webdog,

    what is meant by "going through the tribulation"?

    Israel went through a tribulation (of sorts) in Egypt but were protected from the wrath of God upon the Egyptians.

    God can protect us in the midst of the fiery furnace, the lion's den, etc... especially for the refining of our dross.

    1 Peter 4
    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
    19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

    Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: ...

    In the book of Matthew (chapter 13) at the end of the world (age), the tares are bound in the field to be burned while the wheat are gathered into "My barn".

    The "barn" (garner) was a temporary place within the harvest area where the wheat was stored and protected from the elements and foragers awaiting cleansing (Thrashing and winnowing to remove the straw and the chaff).

    HankD
     
  10. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    I' a "Pre-Tribber" too!!! Question for all of you Mid and Post boys!!!

    Which of you want to preach for me in my early absence----you might as well make yourself "useful" while you each "wait your turn" for your segment of the rapture!!! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Archei

    Archei
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    If christ comes post trib, then wouldn't everyone know precicely when christ was coming back, seven years after the beginning of the tribulation? That would be in violation of the "noone knows the day nor the hour" verses.
     
  12. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    63
    1) IMO, "imminence" does not require "at any moment." What Paul is refuting in 2 Thess 2 is somewhat of an "at any moment" concept.

    2) "At any moment" is impossible, in light of the predictions within scripture, namely, that Paul will testify in Rome and that Peter will be martyred as an old man. This is a classic anti-at-any-moment argument. Think of this: did Peter expect Jesus to come at any moment when his Lord told him that he would be martyred as an old man?

    3)IMO, the elect are removed prior to the "day of the Lord," which is the wrath of God. I do not believe that the beast and his actions constitute the wrath of God.

    Think of this:

    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
     
  13. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    63
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    IMO, the 70th week will be cut short.
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,670
    Likes Received:
    79
    Yes, there are many “little” anti-Christ working in the spirit of Satan in this last time... teaching the lusts of the world.

    (1Jo 2:17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.

    (1Jo 2:18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    We are told to be prepared, but I keep hearing doctrine of escape. Even though we are warned that there will be a falling away first. Why should we know these things if we’re not here?

    (2Ti 3:1) This know also , that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    (2Ti 3:2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers , disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    (2Ti 3:3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    (2Ti 3:4) Traitors , heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    (2Ti 3:5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof : from such turn away.

    A strong man is prepared, he does not have to go into his house to gather anything but has his garment already on (Armor). No one can go into his house:

    (Mat 12:29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house.

    (Mat 12:30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

    (Mat 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men .

    We hear about denying the Holy Spirit; one must have heard the HS to blasphemy against it. I think we’re being told to stand fast, be prepared, and not deny the faith and that we should know by these things that come to pass that the time is near. Yet some teach “easyrapturism” this sounds dangerous to me and contrary to God’s instructions.

    (Heb 6:9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

    (Heb 6:10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    (Heb 6:11) And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

    (Heb 6:12) That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    (Heb 6:13) For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he swore by himself,

    (Heb 6:14) Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

    (Heb 6:15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Perhaps to glorify God and be a witness to Him.

    John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
     
  16. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will agree to preach for you as soon as you show me a pretrib rapture in the book of Revelation ;) [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    5,475
    Likes Received:
    34
    Touche', webdog, touche'!!

    Wouldn't it be interesting if God brought each of us into eternity in line with our beliefs???!!!
    My paraphrase of the verse!

    Don't all you purists get your panties in a wad, I'm not saying that this is the case; just an interesting "IF" statement!
     
  18. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    14,418
    Likes Received:
    240
    Benjamin, I believe we are in agreement, if we follow after this admonition from Scripture all will go well for us no matter what one's point of view:

    1 John 2
    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    HankD
     
  19. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    14,418
    Likes Received:
    240
    My question is how would anyone (saint or otherwise) know to discern the first day of the tribulation when it came?

    Matthew 24
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Presumably Noah had been preaching all those years before hand.

    HankD
     
  20. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,337
    Likes Received:
    63
    My only guess is that the covenant might mark the beginning of the tribulation. I don't really see any other possibly definitive signs.

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
     

Share This Page

Loading...