Not to bring up the Catholic thing again, but...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Emily25069, Jan 25, 2010.

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  1. Emily25069

    Emily25069
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    I am not Catholic, however, I was raised Catholic.

    In another thread, it was mentioned that the gospel is not taught in a Catholic church. I just wanted to say that in my experience, it was.

    I think many many Catholic churches have changed. Last year while I was searching, I spent Advent in my former Catholic church just to kind of go back to square one where I came from. Spending time in 3 different baptist churches over the years left me very confused about what the truth was and I had become uncertain of my salvation. They all believed in Salvation by faith through grace alone, but all 3 of them seemed to define things a little differently. Namely, the role that works play. The churches I attended were flavored with the Pastor. They were very much cults of personality. Anyhow, time spent in my old Catholic church showed me just how much they have changed.

    However, one thing that I always did know growing up was that Jesus died for my sins so I could go to heaven and that I needed to believe that in order to go to heaven.

    I actually think, from my experience that baptists complicate the gospel somehow. So many people "get saved" over and over and over and get baptized over and over and over. Watching this happen to people around me was very confusing. Was I saved or not? Is it possible to want to be saved, but not be able to be? These were questions that filled my head. At my darkest point, I was convinced God hates us. It seemed like a cruel joke to not know if I was saved or not. I looked at people who "knew" they were saved and wondered why I couldnt know. It boiled down to feelings really. I was always doubting my salvation because it just seemed tricky.

    So, around Advent 2008 I decided to go back to my Catholic church searching for answers. I got a few.

    Firstly, liturgy is a beautiful thing and definately sounds a lot like the worship in the bible.

    Secondly, I am a firm supporter of the ecumenical creeds. I learned late in baptist life that I wasnt supposed to believe in the creeds. I learned in the Catholic church that I very much do agree with them.. strongly. I think they are needed.

    Thirdly, I learned that there are real Catholic christians, and that much of what I was taught in baptist churches was misrepresented and incorrect.


    I think we are all wrong in doctrines in some places-otherwise there would not be a million denominations. I think that Christ is merciful. I dont think the Catholic church is sending people straight to hell. The gospel is there...in the readings.. in the church year... in the preaching if you happen to pick a good catholic church, which I know can be rare. But the gospel is definately there.

    Fourthly, I learned that I am not Catholic and cannot be a Catholic. I agree with those here that the honor of Mary goes beyond honor and into worship-though it doesnt really happen as often as baptists might imagine. Still, it happens and I cannot be a part of that.



    I know that I always believed...never doubted.. believed from the time I was a child and "got saved" in highschool because somebody convinced me that I wasnt saved. I do wish that the Catholic church had better educated me on the details of my faith, because I was duped into believing that I wasnt.I believe now that I was. Baptists made it all very confusing.

    Anyhow, today I am a happy almost Lutheran. I am enjoying much deeper, much more thorough exegesis of scripture and I am loving the traditions of ancient liturgy. And I am not at all confused about the gospel. God did it all!! Its amazingly freeing to know that God did it all for my salvation and I dont have to doubt that anymore. Its not muddled with my efforts or decisions. It is finished. Praise the Lord!
     
  2. Johnv

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    That is the experience of many here who agree with you. That categorically dispels the claim that the Gospel is as a rule not preached in a Catholic church. Yet, simply noting this opens one up to being called a "catholic defender".
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

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    True. Very True.

    On the other hand I had a discussion with my Father this weekend. We got into the faith verses religion. And he had a real hard time understanding the difference between the two and even missed with his point.

    The conversation went something like this. "Since, I've been a christian God has really help me overcome several area's I stuggle with"
    "Wait, are you saying you weren't a Christian as a Catholic?"
    "No, I'm saying I lacked faith. I was a religious Catholic not one with Faith."
    "What do you mean?"
    "I mean that I said the prayers and went through the motions but my relationship with Christ just wasn't real. I believe many Catholics are in that position today."
    "How do you know?"
    "Because I lived for myself and not Christ. Once Mass was over I could do what ever I wanted and had no real desire to know Christ. How many Catholics Do you know in that boat?"
    "You can't judge people you don't know what God's doing with them"
    "I can certainly judge their life style."
    "You still really don't know. (Yelling at this point) You were baptised! as are they."
    "John the Baptist said that just because you are a decendent of Abraham you can't claim you heretage as one because God can turn any stone into a decendent of Abraham. You have to believe. Have a real faith. Not just saying the rosary because you're supposed to. Not just going to mass. Its your Faith that makes the difference. Not religion"
    "Listen this is what religion is. I saw some really devoute catholics praying the rosary and saying novenas to Mary during Mass! That is religion and shows a lack of proper faith."
    "Dad, I don't think you're quite getting it...."
     
  4. JohnDeereFan

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    Not in my experience.I never once heard the Gospel from any of the priests or the nuns. Although, in all fairness, I never heard the Gospel in any of the Methodist churches we attended, either.

    What's more, I have repeatedly asked the Catholics on another board to pretend I'm an unsaved person with no understanding of the Gospel and share the Gospel with me. Not one of them could.

    I even asked the Catholics over at Catholic.com to do so, and they couldn't do it.

    If they are preaching the Gospel in Catholic churches, then why don't Catholics know the Gospel?
     
  5. Johnv

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    I think I see a softening of a hard exterior. Seriously, though, that explains a lot. There's definitely a perception issue going on, and I'd wonder what type of environement precluded you from exposure to Catholic or Methodists where the Gospel wasn't preached. That would be interesting to examine.
    I suspect that this is also a matter of perception. WHile it likewise might nto be your experience, many others here, including myself, will attest to knowing Roman Catholics (and, for that matter Methodists) who know the Gospel.

    On the flip side, I can list a few IFB Baptists who didn't know the Gospel at all. I wouldn't, however, use them as a litmust test for citing that IFB Baptists on a whole dont' know or preach the Gospel.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I agree with you on those two statements at least.


    I agree with much of that.

    Certainly all of us will "learn something" in heaven - and be suprised at how things turn out.

    And it is also true that "all variations cannot be right" -- at most - at best - one is actually right. At worst - all are wrong.



    I just saw something on TV where a Mass was being held - the Rosary being said -- on behalf of the victims in Haiti. Repetiton of the Rosary was almost endless - all being done in unison -- "hail Mary..."

    It was hard to believe -- you really had to see it to believe people would do such a thing in modern times.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Matt Black

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    I would agree wholeheartedly with the OP, both in experience and in conclusion. Last time I went to Mass (just over 2 weeks ago), I heard the Gospel preached in the sermon.
     
  8. JohnDeereFan

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    [inappropriate personal attack deleted]

    That was just the "environment" of those churches.

    Fine. Find me a Catholic who knows the Gospel.

    Except that IFBs are all autonomous, while Catholics are always bragging that they're all the same.
     
    #8 JohnDeereFan, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2010
  9. DHK

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    There are many different types of Baptist churches. It would be interesting to know what kind of Baptist churches you attended that got you confused. Certainly churches that follow the personality of a pastor instead of comparing what he says to the Bible are going to lead to confusion. American Baptist Churches (the denomination) is full of modernism. Anyone coming out of one of those would definitely be confused.

    If you actually heart the gospel being explained in the Catholic Church I would be amazed. It goes against the doctrine of the RCC. They cannot preach the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and their doctrine at the same time without contradicting themselves. One is a gospel of grace; the other a gospel of grace. And that is the area in which you were admittedly confused.
    As a Catholic I believed those same things.
    But add in: You need to be baptized, confirmed, keep the sacraments, etc., then it is no longer that Jesus died for your sins in order to go to heaven. It is Jesus died for some of your sins, and you have to do the rest of these works to pay the rest of the penalty that he didn't atone for. That is not what they say. But that is the logical outcome of a works-based salvation. Either he paid for all of our sins and his blood was sufficient to cover them all, so that no works are needed. Or his blood was not sufficient to pay the full penalty for our sins. Which one?
    A bit of an exaggeration. But I know the type of person you are speaking of. I am related to one such individual.
    She got "saved" and then baptized when she was in Sunday School (about 8 years old) after her Sunday School teacher "led her to the Lord." Children are impressionable. In hindsight she made this decision to please her teacher and not the Lord. Her life demonstrated that she really wasn't saved.
    When 14, she was confronted by her pastor directly: "You are not saved are you?" Her life was full of rebellion--nothing serious as in drugs or alcohol, but disobedience to parents, pastor, and a wrong attitude. She confessed that she had not really been saved when she was smaller. He counseled her. She made a decision, prayed, and was soon baptized. But though there was some change in her life for a awhile it wasn't a permanent change. She went back to her old rebellious ways. Finally, at the age of 16 she went to a Christian Camp. There under some powerful preaching of the Word of God she was convicted of the Holy Spirit, confessed that she was a sinner and came to Christ. To see the difference in her life now, from what it was before is truly amazing. For a third time she was baptized for that is a command given to the saved. Before that time she wasn't saved. Now her life is different. You can fool man. But you cannot fool God. Things like this happen. Nevertheless we rejoice when a person comes to the Lord.
    You needed to seek out a pastor or mature Christian who had the answers to these questions instead of wandering in darkness. Perhaps you were saved and only lacked an assurance of salvation. Or, perhaps you were not saved at all.
    The gospel message is the most simple message of all the religions on earth. It is not made complicated like the RCC makes it, nor like any other religion's plan of salvation.
    Define "worship." What you are defining as worship, is simply "feeling." That is not worship. The liturgy is simply a play on a person's emotions. It is not worship. Unsaved people do not worship the true and living God. They cannot.
    Why would ecumenical creeds be needed when you have the very revelation of God from God himself? Isn't He enough? Contained in the books of the Bible is everything that one needs to know about God, and everything that God wants us to know about him and his will for us. These man-made creeds, in the light of God's revelation, are useless.
    There may be Christians in the Catholic Church.
    If they are there it is: 1. Because of direct disobedience to the Lord.
    2. Because of ignorance; they have not been taught by the Word.
    --A saved individual will obey the Lord and get out of the RCC.

    However you are correct in saying that in Baptist churches there is much that is taught that is incorrect. To verify that just read some of the Baptist threads in the Baptist forums.
    Their false gospel of works is.
    Reading out of the gospels is not the same as preaching the gospel.
    I also was in the Catholic Church for 20 years and never heard the gospel preached once.
    Worship of Mary happens every time a Catholic says the rosary which is often. Hail Mary's without the rosary are said often. That is worship of Mary.
    The Catholics could not better educate you, because they didn't know better. They don't know the gospel.
    I regret that you weren't in a better Baptist Church to begin with.
    I am happy for you if your pastor preaches the Word.
    The fact that you are in a Lutheran Church confirms my suspicion about you connecting "worship" to "emotions." You chose a Lutheran Church because it is liturgical and appeals to the emotions. If it is an evangelical Lutheran Church it will still preach the gospel. The liturgical aspect of it appeals to the emotions. Baptist services tend to be quite a bit more informal, but that doesn't mean there is no worship in them. True worship is not based on emotion.
     
  10. Alive in Christ

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    John Deere posted...

    For 24 years I never heard the true saving gospel in the RCC

    Not once.

    It was always a mixing of faith/works/sacraments/confession/Mary's intercession, etc etc.

    The true saving gospel of course is simply belief in Christ provision. Faith in Christ and faith in Christ alone
     
    #10 Alive in Christ, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2010
  11. lori4dogs

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    Here is an article I found through CRI on the Exodus of evangelical to Catholic Church. It has both pro and con positions. It refers to John MacArthurs objection to calling Catholics 'brethren in the Lord' but after hear his teaching on what he say the Catholic Church teaches on Purgatory I find he knows precious little about Catholicism. Anyway, I hope you all will take time to read and that there will be some feedbackl

    http://www.equip.org/articles/returning-to-rome
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    Catholics! Sheeesh. I think from reading the most recent post that there is a disparity on what the gospel actually is. the New comer to the debate and Matt have alleged they've heard the gospel at mass. The others like DHK and Alive have claimed that all their many years in the CC they never heard the gospel. So how does each side define "Gospel"?
     
  13. annsni

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    Did you read the article? Did you read the conclusion?

     
  14. lori4dogs

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    JDF posted: 'The true saving gospel of course is simply belief in Christ provision. Faith in Christ and faith in Christ alone".
    Wow, this was the sermon we heard at Holy Family Catholic Church this weekend.

    He even quoted Romans 10:9, and Ephesisan 2:8,9. So, yes he was preaching the Gospel message and about the same Jesus who died as a full sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and wants to redeem anyone who believes he died for their sins and was resurrected by God to prove His diety.

    In the whole sermon, not one mention of having to do good works to accomplish that salvation He FREELY gives to those who trust and believe.


    There are excellent books on why Catholics utilize the rosary as a method of meditation on the life of Christ. The objection always seems to come up 'the bible condemns vain repititions prayer.' It is the VAIN part of the repititious prayer you should object to. While we recite the ave Maria, we meditate the mystier of Christ life.
     
  15. DHK

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    The feedback is as exactly as the conclusion states:

    Would you expect anything less?
    There is no gospel in the RCC. That is the point of the whole article.
     
  16. Melanie

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    I attend the Tridentine Mass as was before Vatican 2. The Mass was significantly changed post V2 and there are those (me etc) who believe that the changes were a disaster.

    Having stated where I am coming from.....the Mass I attend have an Introit taken from the Psalms mostly, the Epistle from Old or New Testaments, the Gospel (from the New Testament, the congregation stands in respect for the Gospel), the homily/sermon on Sunday is related to the Gospel in order to instruct and enrich the congregation's spiritual life,and of course the Last Gospel which is John 1: 1-14 where the congregation stands out of respect and kneels at the words "et verbum caro factum est" (" and the word was made flesh",).

    These are the highlighted parts of the Mass which change daily with the exception of the Last Gospel. The Ordinary...the unchanging parts of the Mass have Biblical text throughout....I could write this out but it would be extremely wordy and probably not appreciated.:type:

    To state that the Gospel and the Bible itself is ignored is deeply hurtful..
     
    #16 Melanie, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2010
  17. DHK

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    You also pray to the dead.
    You practice necromancy.
    You make a god out of Mary.
    You practice idolatry.
    The whole of Maryolatry is sin and an abomination before God, who alone demands worship and condemns the worship of another.
     
  18. DHK

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    A reading from the gospels is far different from the gospel message being explained. What does it mean to be saved? How is a person born again? The word "gospel" means "good news". A gospel of works is bad news; it sends people to hell, even if you read from one of the gospels.
     
  19. lori4dogs

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    Thanks for reading the article Ann. Yes, I did read it in it's entirety. I believe there is a lot of work to be done on that 'essential theological ground'. But we have had poster here who have claimed that no matter what a Catholic claims to believe in terms of the Gospel, by the simple fact that he continues to attend as practicing Catholic He has no chance of salvation. That is where my chief objection lies. I believe the 'true gospel' is preached in the Catholic Church, people repent and are saved in the Catholic Church, the Church is on fire to bring others the Lose to Christ. For people to judge other peoples salvation because of the form of their worship is sad.

    I genuflect when I enter my church, not to a statue, not to the altar, not to the crucifix, but to the Real Presence of Jesus I believe it there. I don't make the sign of the cross to (bless myself) because I am asking God by making that sign to do that for me. I love the silence and reverence upon entering a Catholic prayer where I can begin my worship in prayer with ought
    disturbance. I ask Jesus to lead me to someone who may not know him as lord and savior that day or who has special needs. "Enter His Courts In The Beauty of Holiness . . . Let the whole earth stand in awe of Him.

    Ann, I haven't share my testimony to what brought me out of my 'occasional Sunday' Christian lifestyle by a true miracle that gives me reason to each day share with someone about salvation through Jesus. I hope to do that on the board soon.

    One more thing, my spouse and I met with some neighbors who don't know diddly about God or His word. We discussed their objections (the usual) to the institutional church and some bad experiences they had attended some kind of church which they couldn't remember the name of We are having coffee later this week and they have agreed to attend the Freewill Baptist Church with us right up the street. It is a smaller church and very welcoming. I would appreciate your prayers for these dear souls that they come to make a decision to for Christ.

    And before you ask, we didn't invite them to attend our Catholic Church because to often there is standing room only and many of my prayer partners at the Freewill BC have already been praying for these people and I believe will make them feel very much welcome.
     
  20. lori4dogs

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    I agree, in no church have heard as much bible reading and instruction as in the RCC. I envy you having an opportunity to attend the Tidentine Mass. So far we have an early mass at 8AM that uses the Latin in the Introit, Kyrie
    (Greek) Psalter is chanted, Sarsum Corda, (latin) the entire canon of the mass is chanted, and the Agnus Dei. The church is always packed (even at that hour) and I'm often moved to tears by the reverence conveyed. So glad the Holy Father has allowed a return to the traditional liturgy that many of us miss so much. Attendance has certainly improved!

    "et verbum caro factum est" Thanks be to God!
     
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