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Not to bring up the Catholic thing again, but...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Emily25069, Jan 25, 2010.

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  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    A couple of points, picking up on what others have said thus far.

    Firstly, Thinkingstuff and others have asked what is meant by the 'Gospel' and in what way I heard this preached in the sermon at Mass the other week. Being an evangelical board, I won't make the 'mistake' of saying "the reading from the Gospel", although of course we did have that at Mass too. No, for me, the Gospel is the Good News about Jesus Christ, His incarnation, death and resurrection; specifically His mission to save us from our sins by taking the punishment due for them upon His body on the cross so that, through faith in His death and resurrection and a grace-borne desire to follow Him, we may attain eternal life, free from sin and its consequences.

    That was, in essence, the sermon the other Sunday. It was the feast of the Baptism of Jesus and, after a preamble about why Jesus was baptised and what baptism was to the Jews (references to the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls etc), the priest moved on to the core of his homily: Jesus' baptism in the context of His mission to save us from sin. He mentioned, amongst other things, the following points: Jesus taking the punishment for our sins on the cross, the need for a personal faith in Jesus and His death and resurrection, the availability of a direct relationship with God through Jesus to be appropriated by faith, and an exhortation to share that faith with others. Reference was also made to Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at His baptism and the need for us to do likewise and minister and evangelise in the power of that Spirit as Jesus did. We were told very firmly that it was insufficient to merely 'go through the religious motions', to just turn up to Mass every Sunday and leave unchanged, but that we needed to personally meet with the risen Lord and to study His Word in the Scriptures daily if we were to grow in faith and relationship with our God.

    That do?

    Secondly, a point about liturgical -v- non-liturgical and emotions. I would say that in part one's emotional response to types of worship and music used in that worship depends very much on one's personality. I have to say that I have encountered far more of what I would call 'emotional' worship at Baptist churches* than I have at those more liturgical places further 'up the candle' as it were. I'm not sure that we can neatly package worship in that way, nor am I convinced that we can compartmentalise our response into 'carnal' and 'spiritual'; that seems to me to run the danger of injecting a form of gnostic dualism (matter=evil, spirit=good) into the equation, and I'm not sure that's healthy...

    *Both in terms of the more contemporary, 'charismatic'-style choruses and the old, 19th century 'rabble-rousing' hymns.
     
  2. dcorbett

    dcorbett Active Member
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    Again, I ask, when Jesus (i.e.the trinity) is our only intercessor, why do you pray to Mary? She was a sinner saved by grace just like us! She was not perfect - but I found this:

    The "Catechism of the Council of Trent" says that to the first part of the Hail Mary, by which "we render to God the highest praise and return Him most gracious thanks, because He has bestowed all His heavenly gifts on the most holy Virgin ... the Church of God has wisely added prayers and an invocation addressed to the most holy Mother of God ... we should earnestly implore her help and assistance; for that she possesses exalted merits with God, and that she is most desirous to assist us by her prayers, no one can doubt without impiety and wickedness." (Wikipedia)

    Mary is exalted and prayed to in the roman catholic religion. This is not Biblical. It is not scriptural, and it is WRONG.
     
  3. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you or me. Even in the Rosary we ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners."

    Mary is a "born again" Christian who received the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost and spoke in tongues 2000 years before Pentecostals got the gift.(Acts 1:14, 2:3) She knows how to pray - yes even in tongues!

    The Bible says Jesus is magnified by Mary's soul. A soul is not limited by life on earth. Mary reinforces her eternal ministry by saying "all generations will call me blessed."Question for you, do you refer to her at the Blessed Virgin Mary? The bible indicates we should. If the Bible intended Mary's ministry to end with the birth of Jesus, or at Jesus' death, or even at Mary's death, I don't think it would use that language.

    Catholics believe Mary's soul still "magnifies the Lord" for Christians of our generation who choose to relate to her. Currently, Catholics are pretty well the only ones upholding the biblical prophesy to call her blessed, which was intended for all generations, and for all Christians.

    My time spent with Mary has actually significantly improved my relationship with my Lord and Saviour, Jesus. He does not need Mary, angels, or saints. Nor does he need you or me. t is out of his overabundance of Graces. It is his generosity, his desire to share his graces, his overflowing goodness, and his great Love for us. David said "my cup overflows" (Ps 23). That is what God is. He is overflowing with graces that he shares with his mother and all the angels and saints. If he loves you and I so much that he asks us to join in intercession for each other it seems logical that he would ask all the company of heaven to do the same. Again, we are not asking the prayers (or conjuring up dead people) their souls are very much alive in the pretense of the Lord.
     
  4. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    Ask yourself, is prayer always 'worship'? Is it always reserved for God alone between one Christian or another and only ones in this life? I ask my brothers and sister her to pray on my behalf all the time.
     
  5. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    you know what they say dcorbett...control the definitions and you win the debate...you have a problem understanding or you are misapplying the terms in your question....particular the terms "intercession" and "pray"...

    "intercession" simply means a petition or entreaty in favor of another and even "prayer" itself is is form of "intercession". Every time you ask your prayer group or close friends and relatives to "pray" for you, you are asking them to "intercede" to God on your behalf.

    "pray" is often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea..."pray be careful". can also mean to entreat or implore...to make a humble request or to address God with adoration, supplication or thanksgiving...

    now for your question, it seems you are using "intercession" in place of "mediator"...big difference pal! we have only one "mediator" and that's Christ Jesus...

    so if I ask you, Mary or St. John to "pray" for me, i'm asking for intercessory prayer on my behalf. i'm not trying to gain information from Mary or St. John, like John Edward a popular medium, i'm simply asking them to pray for me...

    In XC
    -
     
  6. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Why did she have to be born again? I thought Catholics believed she was sinless.
     
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Do you ask your dead relatives to pray for you?


    And why does Mary have to "pray" anyway? If you were in God's very presence in heaven, why would you pray? Prayer is unnecessary when you're face to face with God. Prayer is for those on this side of eternity.

    Mary, the pope, dead saints, or grandma, cannot intercede for you! There is only ONE intercessor. That is Christ Jesus.
     
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    What about the wedding at Cana (John 2)? Mary was face to face with God in the Person of her Son Jesus, yet she still saw fit to mention to Him about the shortage of wine.
     
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I will respectfully disagree with this with all my heart. What you described is exactly what we have with our contemporary worship at our church. Completely.
     
  10. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known Member
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    C'mon Ann, keep up. Don't you get it?? The emotions that arise from singing hymns come from the presence of the Holy Spirit. Any emotions that arise from liturgy or from CCM are emotional and of the flesh.

    Now back to the OP...
     
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Where is this?


    It is not her eternal ministry any more than Abraham has an eternal ministry. They both were historic figures who obeyed God and thus they leave a legacy. That's all - they don't continue to minister to us.


    Can you show me the verse that says "Blessed Virgin Mary"? Because I don't see that in any Bible I've ever seen.

    No, Mary WAS blessed. But she was blessed at that time that God did a miracle in her. She is not continually blessed any more than any of us are continually blessed and of course she's blessed now in the presence of her God. Her soul still magnifies the Lord as do the souls of every other person redeemed by the blood of the Lamb that has gone on to heaven after death. Mary is no different than any one else.

    You are praying to a god. Period. If Mary hears your prayers, protects you, strengthens you, etc., then she is a god. That is unbiblical.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Only hymms like Rock of Ages, What a friend we have in Jesus, sweet by and by, and when the roll gets called up yonder... should be in worship service. Anything with a date later than those is of the devil. :laugh:
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    She was face to face with her son. Is this what you call prayer?

    If I have a conversation with you, am I "praying" to you?
     
  14. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    in a sense yes, by the very definition of the word "pray", you are..."pray" used in the verb form without object can mean to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person for a thing...hence Mary's request to Jesus to turn water into wine...hence me requesting my wife to pick up a TV guide at the store...

    In XC
    -
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Yes. In old english. Sure. I pray thee answer this......
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    YES! Prayer is always worship! When the disciples asked Christ how to pray, I don't recall Mary's name anyhwere in "Our Father..."
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    No "in a sense"...it's a yes or no answer. Prayer is reserved for God and God alone.
     
  18. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    The Apostles asked Jesus how to pray, not worship...the Apostles were devote Jews...they knew how to worship...

    In XC
    -
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Pray tell why no one has answered the appropiate use of "I pray thee answer this"
     
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    That is ridiculous. You are saying that when we pray to God it is no different than when we talk on the phone with a friend.

    Your are using the word "prayer" in a totally different context than the subject being discussed here.
     
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