Not under law but under grace.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by trustitl, Nov 17, 2007.

  1. trustitl

    trustitl
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    There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the 10 commandments due to the recent poll. I would like to see the following commented on:

    Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

    What is grace?
    How does being under grace make it so sin no longer has dominion over us?
    What was the connection of sin having dominion over us and being under the law?
     
  2. hillclimber1

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    Grace= unmerited favor
     
  3. BobRyan

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    "Under Law" in the context of Romans 6 means "under the condemnation of the law" not "without the Law". In fact Paul already argues that for the Christian our "Faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" it does not "abolish it".

    in Romans 6 Paul argues that violation of the Law of God shows slavery to sin.


    Romans 6
    Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God

    1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

    2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


    4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7for he who has died is freed from sin.



    Rom 6

    8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

    9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
    10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Nov 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2007
  4. bound

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    I really like your brief and yet honest take on this thread. Kudos. :applause:

    I'm sure those who adore Spurgeon won't necessarily flock to your position but I appreciate your desire to have some continuity with the Old Covenant.
     
    #4 bound, Nov 17, 2007
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  5. BobRyan

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    Col 3[/b]
    5Therefore [b]consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality,[/b] impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
    6For it is [b]because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, [/b]
    7and in them [b]you also once walked, when you were living in them.[/b]
    8But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
    9Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self[/b] with its evil practices,
    10and have [b]put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge[/b] according to the image of the One who created him—


    Rom 6
    12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so
    that you obey its lusts,
    13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,


    Wow! What strong Gospel imperatives here. The Gospel command is that WE should take ACTION "Do Not LET..." etc. Let's encourage one another with this amazing Gospel (Word of Truth Col 1:6) command.

    ??Surely not! Surely Paul is losing it here!

    ?? Who is greater – the sinful nature drawing us to sin, or the new nature, the Holy Spirit, the drawing of God??
    • When we put it that way – we “want” to say God is strongest…
    • But that leaves us with a big problem… note: “We sin”!
    • Has Paul gone too far here? Is he losing it???

    Rom 6:

    13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
    14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    Romans 6

    15 What then?
    Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
    16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
    17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
    became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

    18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
     
    #5 BobRyan, Nov 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2007
  6. BobRyan

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    Thank you sir -- I really like Romans 6 as it shows stark contrast between obedience to sin vs obedience to the Word of God as being slavery to sin vs slavery to righteousness.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. gekko

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    crazy quick reply just wants some actual words in this little box i'm typing in.
    so there's a quote i like alot.

    take it home with you and chew on it for awhile.
     
  8. EdSutton

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    Great 'quote'! :thumbs:

    Ed
     
    #8 EdSutton, Nov 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2007
  9. trustitl

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    Not under law but under grace

    Quote from an earlier post:
    Who is greater – the sinful nature drawing us to sin, or the new nature, the Holy Spirit, the drawing of God??

    How is it we can have a sinful nature but still be free?

    Websters 1828
    NATURE, n. [L. from nature, born, produced,]
    5. A law or principle of action or motion in a natural body. A stone by nature falls, or inclines to fall.

    A stone is not free from gravity and can only fall or be under the influence to fall. It is under the dominion of gravity.

    Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Sin (as scripture says in 1John 3) is "transgression of the law" - so in Romans 6 "shall SIN be master over you" is in fact a question about law BREAKING. It is arguing that we do not need to go on breaking the law as do those wicked who are outslide the gospel as if we were enslaved to sin -- to sinning - to law breaking and still merely under the condemnation of the Law. For the natural heart -- the heart set on the flesh DOES not submit to the law of God NEITHER indeed CAN it.

    Those who seek to END their relationship to the Law are trying to avoid the New Covenant where the Law is written "on the heart".

    As James points out - we as Christians look at the Law of God - as into a mirror and see what the law points out in our characters -- we see areas that need to be turned over to Christ.

    "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh Romans 8 THEN are you the childen of God" Romans 8.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Well stated BR.:thumbs: Any believer that is living in violation of God’s moral law and is doing despite the Spirit of grace, is deceived as to their standing before God. Forgiveness is granted only for sins that are past and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith.

    To say that the law can chase one to the cross and no further is true IF one remains faithful and walks in the light as He is in the light from the cross forward until they stand before the Lord in judgment. To claim that no believer can sin and become guilty before God again and find themselves in need of repentance and renewed forgiveness, without which no man shall see the Lord, is simply pure unadulterated antinomianism and presumes upon the grace of God. David prayed, “Lord, keep thy servant from presumptuous sin.”

    The notion that a believer can sin with impunity subsequent to Calvery, as is implied by the comment of the law chasing one only as far as Calvary and no further, is the basis for what I believe is the biggest crucial deception to fall upon the Church. God help us before it is too late to see the error and change our minds and hearts as to the end of sin.
     
  12. trustitl

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    Not under law but under grace

    The question was not really addressed.

    BR says:
    For the natural heart -- the heart set on the flesh DOES not submit to the law of God NEITHER indeed CAN it.


    You "quote" the following but left off verse 8.
    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    In other words: as long as we are in the flesh we cannot keep the law. And keeping the law is the only way to please God.
     
  13. trustitl

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    [QUOTE Heavenly Pilgrim HP: Well stated BR.:thumbs: Any believer that is living in violation of God’s moral law and is doing despite the Spirit of grace, is deceived as to their standing before God. Forgiveness is granted only for sins that are past and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith
    QUOTE]


    "Deceived as to their standing": does this mean they are not born again?

    What is "God's moral law"?

    Can you explain what "the conditions of repentance and faith" means.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: To be ‘in the flesh’ is simply to be living allowing the desires of the sensibilities and our lusts to control us. One that has never came to salvation as well as those that have experienced salvation can fall into that trap. We as believers are warned ‘not to fulfill the lusts and deeds of the flesh.’ Those that live according to the flesh will indeed suffer the guilt and condemnation of the law in the end. We, as believers, are to ‘die’ to the flesh, i.e., put away the deeds of the flesh and live in the light of the Spirit. Notice the big “IF” in the following verse. Ga 5:18 "But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
     
  15. trustitl

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    Quote from HP
    "The notion that a believer can sin with impunity subsequent to Calvery, as is implied by the comment of the law chasing one only as far as Calvary and no further, is the basis for what I believe is the biggest crucial deception to fall upon the Church."

    The quote did not say that a believer can sin with impunity.

    IMPU'NITY, n. [L. impunitas; in and punio, to punish.]

    1. Exemption from punishment or penalty.

    The scripture is full of punishments for sinning by believers. One example that quickly comes to mind:

    James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: So here we go round and round. Are you going to tell me that the ‘death’ spoken of here is simply a matter of dying sooner so as to gain your rewards quicker?
     
  17. trustitl

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    Not under law but under grace

    HP: To be ‘in the flesh’ is simply to be living allowing the desires of the sensibilities and our lusts to control us.

    You have made being in the spirit or in the flesh something we control by keeping God's moral law. This "standing" is actually "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (I Peter 1:5)

    Actually a person who is no longer "in the flesh" can allow their lusts of the flesh to lead them.

    Rom. 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."

    :12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

    Col 2:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

    It is a choice we make as new creatures.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Are you going to tell me that the ‘death’ spoken of here is simply a matter of dying sooner so as to gain your rewards quicker?
     
  19. trustitl

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    Actually I am telling anybody that might be reading this. :thumbs:

    Are you saying that if we sin we die spiritually and need to be saved again?
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: First, I would say that you have no Scriptural basis to base the notion that the death spoken of here is mere physical death. Anyone that passes from this life to the next without fulfilling the conditions of forgiveness, i.e., repentance and faith as testified by a clear conscience before God and man, is deceived as to their standing before God. If the death here spoken of is physical death, please tell the list how you can save anyone from that necessitated appointment???

    If you desire to save a soul from death, the death spoken of here can be none other than spiritual death, i.e., eternal separation from God. Over that death and that death alone can you have any meaningful influence.

    I am saying that no man can have a sure hope of eternal life while in possession of an evil conscience.

    This I know. God commands us to repent and live according to the Spirit in holiness, “without which no man shall see the Lord.“

    The real question is 'will I get to where I believe I am heading doing the things and living the way I am now doing and living?' If one is in possession of a clear conscience before God and man, and has repented of their sins and is walking in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with God and the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins that are past. As such are assured, by faith, that we will make heaven our final abode. All other hope and faith is dead.

    Anyone that claims to love God and claims to have heaven as their hope while in possession of an evil conscience is simply deceived as to their final standing with God as it stands today from our pespective by faith. The remedy is simple. Do not waste time wondering how I can line all this up in agreement with my current theological positions, but rather one simply needs to repent, do ones first works over afresh and anew, and start walking in the light with the help and strength of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #20 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2007

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