"not willing that any should perish"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by AresMan, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan
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    I have seen 2 Peter 3:9 brought up many times in this forum. How would self-ascribed Calvinists and Arminians explain what this phrase means?

    "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." My focus is on the word willing. If it is the "will" of God that no one perishes, but all repent, would the fact that some do not repent say that God's sovereign "will" is thwarted? If God truly indeed is "willing" that all repent, why do not all repent?

    So my questions are:
    1. If God is "willing" (or desiring?) all to repent, is He capable of fulfilling His own desires? Since, not all repent, why does He not, if this is what He "wills"?
    2. Is this passage referring to all humanity, or only to the elect?
    3. Is this even a passage about salvation (i.e. justification), or is it about sanctification within the elect?
     
  2. King James Bond

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    AresMan,

    Best to start at the start of the book for a better answer maybe.

    1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

    2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

    God bless
     
  3. Pipedude

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    You seem to imply that, if God wills or desires something, it will come to pass. This is untrue.

    Is God willing that little girls be sexually molested by their fathers? If not, then why does it happen? Is he not "capable of fulfilling his own desires?"

    The Problem of Evil, a standard proof for atheists, hardly helps the Calvinist apologist.
     
  4. whetstone

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    your focus should be on the word 'usward' not 'willing.' this is how Arminians get hung up.
     
  5. King James Bond

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    Pipedude,

    I as a Calvinist have no problem explaining evil. It exists because God has decreed it to exist.

    Arminians on the other hand show that God does not want evil to exist....but is powerless to stop it from existing.

    I am quite certain that Satan exists because God sustains him.

    If I was to blind a man on purpose, I am guilty of blinding a man.

    A man that rapes anybody is guilty before God of rape no matter if he is a father and it is a little girl or big girl that he rapes.

    The same is not true of God. If God blinds a man, is He guilty? Who would you say has control over what is created? Who is in control of those created in the womb?

    We humans, look at many things from a different perspective. We will be held to standards that God Himself cannot be held to. Let me give you a small, easy to understand scenario as an example.

    Scenario;

    (Let us say there is a man beating a woman to death with a club. In the same scene we have a policeman that can see exactly what is going on. This policeman has enough power to stop the man from beating the woman to death, yet he does nothing at all to stop the beating and help her.)

    In this scenario, we would accuse not only the man who is active in beating the woman to death with a club, but the policeman would be guilty as well for sitting idle when he could have stepped in and saved the woman from a brutal and painful death. In our perspective, and in relation to someone having power to protect, inaction brings on as much guilt as the bad action itself.

    In one day we could make a gigantic list of all kinds of evil deeds that take place every day on this planet we are on. Rapes, child molesting, robberies, beatings, murders, plagues, famine, earthquakes, floods, elderly abuse.....the list could go on forever!

    I must at this time ask of you the following;

    In light of so much evil, where does God fit into the picture? Since many people have fallen at the hands of such brutal beasts, and we know without a doubt God is THE MOST POWERFUL BEING that exists. If He does not step in to help all people, in everyone of these matters, but only sits idle, is He also guilty of inaction?

    I say no, and I can provide Scripture to back it up!

    I conclude that God knows exactly what is going on,, He is not accountable to men,, all He does is good,, and no one will teach Him better ways to do things. If He gives to some, and none to others, He is still good!

    I say God's hands are involved with His creation.

    Would you say that God simply wound up the clock and stands back while watching all things?

    Regards, KJB
     
  6. philg

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    Why is the lord longsuffering? (1) He does not wish that anyone should perish. (2) He wants all men to come to repentence. . Now why would God have to be longsuffering if he has already predestined who will be saved?

    According to Calvinist doctrine, 2 Peter 3:9 does not refer to all mankind, but to the elect. God is being patient, waiting for the elect to be compelled by God into trusting in Jesus. But is this what Peter was trying to say? Nope.

    Who is going to be destroyed? In the past the world was destroyed by water. Everybody but eight in the Ark of Noah died. Now the world is reserved for destruction by fire. And who will be destroyed? Everybody not in the Ark of Christ.

    So when in verse 9, Peter says God is being patient, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentence, he is speaking of everybody that faces destruction. He is waiting so that some may come to repentence and enter the Ark of Christ and not perish but have eternal life.
    Some Calvinists try to say that usward means the elect. Paul was not only a Christian, but a member of the human race. When the word usward is taken in context with the word, all, and also in context with related passages, it is clear that usward speaks of mankind.

    2 peter 2:11 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

    Even the false prophets were bought by Jesus.
     
  7. timothy27

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    Unfortunately the use of the word all is incorrect, the greek word is pas, which means all types or kinds, not each and every.
     
  8. Monergist

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    Don't you know that its bad form for Calvinists to counter misconceptions with facts? ;)

    It's good to have you here. I've enjoyed your posts.
     
  9. philg

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    All can only be taken in a limited sense if there is something in the context that allows it. For instance sometimes believers are contrasted with unbelievers and all may mean 1 of the 2 groups.

    Also there are a few passages where it can be argued that all is used as a hyperbole. All should be taken to mean all of mankind unless you can prove from the context of the passage that it does not.
    Calvinist often quote many passages showing where all is limited to a particular group. I can also quote passages where all speaks of all of mankind.
    Each passage must be taken within context so if you believe that in a particular passage that all is to be taken in a limited sense you must prove it from the context.
    In the passages concerning salvation we she the bible constantly stating all, whosoever, every man, ect.


    A couple of passages where “all means every individual. Romans 3:23 and Romans 5:12

    3:23
    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
     
  10. timothy27

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    How can it mean each and every when it comes to salvation? If you reference those verses with the ones where Christ says, none shall come to me unless the father draws him, etc. The context would lend one to believe that these are the same people that are referenced as "all." Therefore all would mean- all that the father calls- not each and every individual in the world.
     
  11. philg

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    John 6:44, before the death and ressurection of Christ.
    John 12:32 tells us that after Jesus is lifted up he will draw all men unto him.
     
  12. timothy27

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    John 12:32- all men that the father has given him again if this were not so Jesus would contradict himself.
     
  13. philg

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    Not a contrdiction at all. One statement was made about how things happen before the death of Christ and the other was made about how things would happen after. Notice in John 6:44 it was the Father drawing. In John 12:32 it is the son.
    Contridiction? Not at all.
     
  14. Pipedude

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    I see little in your post to disagree with, and little that argues against Arminianism rightly so called.

    Adieu
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    You seem to imply that, if God wills or desires something, it will come to pass. This is untrue.

    Is God willing that little girls be sexually molested by their fathers? If not, then why does it happen? Is he not "capable of fulfilling his own desires?"

    The Problem of Evil, a standard proof for atheists, hardly helps the Calvinist apologist.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Stuff like that happens because of the fallen condition of man, not because God allows that to happen.
    Atheists are fools.
     
  16. whatever

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    You might start by focusing on what's in those three dots. It's pretty important, and if you ignore that part of the verse you are likely to come to a different conclusion than the Author intended.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    If the word "usward" in 2nd Peter 3:9 is what we should focus on then does this mean that even the elect can be lost?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  18. BobRyan

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    John 1 Christ IS The light that coming into the world "enlightens EVERY one of mankind"

    Why?

    "Because God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

    For "God calls ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent"

    For "God so LOVED the WORLD that HE GAVE His only Son" -- to be the "SAVIOR of the WORLD" 1John 4:14.

    Giving Him as "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sin and NOT FOR OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

    Many many texts to be "ignored" in scope - and then "downsized" to fit the Calvinist Gospel.

    Arminians don't choose to do such a thing to scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. ascund

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    Hey Bob

    Be careful. Arminians downsize John 3 so that the obvious reference to the LOOK of faith can be twisted into unholy water baptism support.

    Calvinists are in the VERY SHALLOWditch of predeterminism; Arminians are so DEEP in ditch of human-centered self-righteousness that they can't even see the road of truth. I actually think the Calvinist ditch is so shallow and close to the truth that they actually have one foot on the road. It would be funny to see an Arminian criticize a Calvinist if it weren't so serious.

    Calvinists actually get justification right; Arminians have no clue how to discuss the topic. Have you noted your failure in the thread I started? I asked for your comment and you quickly yanked Rom 2 and James 2 out of context and babbled how great you are stuff.

    Calvinists are brilliant theologians compared to the Arminians violent abuse of God's holy Word.

    Free Grace Theologian are on the highway of truth between both your errant ditches.
    Lloyd
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ascund;
    There was also a group in the days of Jesus who were brilliant theologins. They were called the Sanhedrim. They were so brilliant, they knew more than Christ Himself. So brilliant they insisted on the cruxifiction of Christ. So brilliant they rejected there own God.
    May Christ shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     

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