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Notable Baptists and Fundamentalists

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Pastor_Bob, Sep 5, 2007.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    JoJ : RB took care of the matter , but I'd like to chime in . It's hard to find a more enthusiastic fan of Gill than C.H.S. He even gave his twin sons Gill's "Body Of Divinity" when they were about 12 . His zeal for Gill and his works were tempered by some qualifications also -- much as he said regarding Calvin : "In the main we agree with him" ( or words to that effect ) .
     
  2. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    The site mentioned in the OP lists Campbell Morgan. In one paragraph on him, it says:

    "The only hope for me was the Bible....I stopped reading books about the Bible and began to read the Bible itself. I saw the light and was back on the path."​


    Then later:

    Dr. Morgan was a prolific but profound writer of books, booklets, tracts and articles. Among his best-known books are Parables of the Kingdom; the eleven volumes of the Westminster Pulpit; The Crises of the Christ; the ten-volume work, The Analysed Bible; the Triumphs of Faith series; and An Exposition of the Whole Bible. ​


    The Reformation motto of "Sola Scriptura" (The Scriptures Alone) does not, in my opinion, mean that no one should ever write, talk or broadcast about the Scriptures - if it did we would have no sermons, no witnessing (apart from reading Scripture verses), no hymns apart from those found in the bible, no Christian radio broadcasts.....
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    To Rippon and ReformedBaptist:

    (1) I have all I need of Gill: his Body of Divinity & his commentaries (through e-sword).

    (2) You misunderstand my point. It is not that Gill should not be included on a list of influential Baptist pastors or theologians. It is that he should not be included on this list. Look again at what I said are the criteria for this list (and I know the SOTL intimately and feel I can speak for it). I wrote: "Since the SOTL has always had as its themes evangelism, revival and Fundamentalism, I'm sure that those are the criteria for being included on the list."

    (3) As for Spurgeon and Gill, it matters not for my point that Spurgeon admired Gill as a theologian and commentator. What matters is that Gill was not evangelistic, and this is a list of evangelistic men, including Calvinists such as Spurgeon, Whitefield and Goforth. In his theology, Spurgeon may have praised Gill, but in his practice and pastoring he followed Fuller.

    For that matter, it was not uncommon in Spurgeon's day to criticize Gill's practice and then compliment his scholarship. Note these two quotes:

    “John Brine and Dr. Gill were chief men in the denomination for nearly half a century. They were Supralapsarians, holding that God’s election was irrespective of the fall of man. They taught eternal justification. Undue prominence was given in their discourses to the teachings of Scripture respecting the Divine purposes. Although they themselves inculcated practical godliness, and so were not justly liable to the charge of Antinomianism, there is reason to fear that numbers of those who imbibed their doctrinal views kept out of sight, or but feebly urged, the obligation of believers to personal holiness. And this is certain, that those eminent men, and all their followers, went far astray from the course marked out by our Lord and his apostles. They were satisfied with stating men’s danger, and assuring them that they were on the high road to perdition. But they did not call upon them to ‘repent and believe the Gospel.’ They did not entreat them to be “reconciled unto God.’ They did not “warn every man and teach every man in all wisdom.’ And the churches did not, could not, under their instruction, engage in efforts for the conversion of souls. (Cramp, J. M. Baptist History: From the Foundation of the Christian Church to the Close of the Eighteenth Century, 1871. p. 435)—Cramp then highly praises the scholarship of Gill on p. 443.

    “And yet, with all his ability, he was so high a supralapsarian, that it is hard to distinguish him from an Antinomian. For example, he could not invite sinners to the Saviour, while he declared their guilt and condemnation, their need of the new birth; and held that God would convert such as he had elected to be saved, and so man must not interfere with his purposes by inviting men to Christ. Under this preaching his Church steadily declined, and after half a century’s work he left but a mere handful” (Armitage, T. 2003. A History of the Baptists, 1886).—He then praises Gill’s scholarship on p. 588.

    Do you have a source for this? You source your other quotes but not this one. But even if you do, this does not prove Gill to be evangelistic. Evangelism is a practice, not primarily a theology. To convince me you'll have to show from the life of Gill how he consistently invited lost folks to Christ and folks were often saved through his ministry.

    You know, it's amazing how many folks God elected through the ministry of Calvinists such as Spurgeon, Whitefield and Goforth. :smilewinkgrin: Why? Because they believed that though God elects, He doesn't inform us who the elect are, therefore we are to invite all to Christ!
     
    #23 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2007
  4. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    BTOP what about Frank Norris and the elder Rawlings (can't remember his first name)
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'd like to see more missionaries on the list, such as Adoniran Judson, Hudson Taylor, etc. Out of 81 bios, only four are missionaries: Brainerd, Carey, Gartenhaus (a grand old missionary to his own people, the Jews) and "Praying" John Hyde
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    The quote of Gill was on one of the websites I found, and considering them brethren, I reckoned them honest. They did not provdide the source. I am sure you can find plenty in 'all need of Gill you have" in his writings to know he preached, wrote, and taught repentance toward GOd and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Concerning his life and ministry it was written,

    "Do you have a source for this? You source your other quotes but not this one. But even if you do, this does not prove Gill to be evangelistic. Evangelism is a practice, not primarily a theology. To convince me you'll have to show from the life of Gill how he consistently invited lost folks to Christ and folks were often saved through his ministry.

    You can read the full summary on Gill's life here http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/gill/summary.htm

    I praise God through those "calvinists" too that God was pleased to bring many sons to glory. Even that old Calvinist William Carey God wrought mightly through. Go figure. lol

    Somone on my thread on Dr. Gill posted this,

    "I reply, that ministers, in exhorting men to believe in Christ, do not, and cannot consider them as elect or non elect, but as sinners, standing in need of Christ, and salvation by him; and that either as sensible, or as insensible of their state and condition; not as insensible of it; for I do not find that any such are exhorted to believe in Christ for salvation; but as sensible of it, as the jailer was, who trembling said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? When the apostle exhorted him, saying, Believe in the lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (Acts 16:30, 31). Besides, such who have believed already, and do know that Christ has died for them, and that they are of the number of God’s elect may be rationally exhorted to walk on in Christ, as they have received him, and to go on believing to the saving of their souls." Cause of God and Truth, Part 3, Section 3--Of Redemption, #5.

    I think that shows the theology from which Gill preached.
     
    #26 ReformedBaptist, Sep 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2007
  7. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Cutter said:
    Just as surely as God has given the Word to his church, he has given the church gifted men. Men who are dead and gone faced theological questions and they painstakingly answered the challenges of their day. Their work was as unto the Lord and it is valuable to us today. Their work makes it unnecesary for us to re-invent the wheel in every generation. Are they infallible, as the Word is? No. But if they were men gifted by the Spirit and they were faithful to think through theological issues, their work HAS to be valuable to us today. We stand on the shoulders of giants; otherwise we would be very small men.
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I would add William Carey to the lists of Missionaries I would like to see on this list.
     
  9. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    William Carey is already on the list.

    Ed
     
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Slight difference.

    Dr. J. Frank Norris is on the list.

    Dr. John W. Rawlings is not for a very simple reason. He's still kicking, breathing, and (maybe) preaching, as far as I know, or at least was, as of a year or so ago. His son, Dr. Harold Rawlings, who succeded John W. Rawlings as Senior Pastor of Landmark Baptist Temple, has even retired, already, so Dr. John W. Rawlings is certainly no spring chicken, by now.

    Ed
     
  11. Cutter

    Cutter New Member

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    My original post, "So much more beneficial to study about a living Christ in His Word that (sic) dead men in textbooks.

    I love their works and thank God for their giftedness in theological matters, but as you notice in my response, I said "more beneficial to study about a living Christ than dead men."

    So study on about dead men if you like, I prefer studying their works and writings as it measures up to the true Word of the Lord.
     
  12. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Cutter said:
    The problem here Cutter, is that these two statements, at least as I understand them, are saying two different things; one of which I agree with and the other do not. Consequently, I am not sure if I agree with you or disagree with you.

    The first statement "sounds" to me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you study exclusively about Christ and none after men. With this I disagree for the reason I stated earlier. The men after whom you can study are men who were recognized during their lifetime and since their death as spiritually gifted men. Spiritually gifted men are a gift to the church for our benefit. They are not infallible, but they are men of God and we should have a proper appreciation for them. If this is not true, why should we listen to anything that you have to say since you are also fallible.

    The second statement I agree with more, but still not completely. Of course, as we study after dead men we measure what they say against God's infallible Word. No one on this board disagrees with this. One caveat, however. These men after whom we read are not dead. They are believers in Jesus Christ and they have been granted eternal life. I've got a feeling your face may turn red and you will have to apologize to them for discounting them in areas in which they were correct when you meet them in glory.
     
  13. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    In a state of shock

    How Shocking !!!! Clarence Larkin was not on SOTL's list.....I didn't know it was possible to be a good Fundamentalist without a copy of "Dispensational Truths" and "Rightly Dividing The Word".(and I AM serious):type: :saint:

    Greg Perry Sr.:godisgood:
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, dispensationalism is not a sine qua non of Fundamentalism. Many of the early Fundamentalists were strong covenant theologians (Presbyterians, etc.). In fact, my grandfather John R., a leading IFB until his death, was never a dispensationalist.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    That's informative to know. Thanks!
     
  16. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    With Respect

    :saint: John...I have always had great respect for your Grandfather and always will but being a Dispensationalist myself (not hyper) I'd have to respectfully disagree with his position on the matter(with grace of course). I was saved in 1977,led to Christ by Jim Berg from BJU,and joined and was baptised at the old Southside Baptist Church in Greenville SC. That,as you probably know was Dr.Walt Handford's church who was one of Dr.Rice's son-in-laws. Mrs. Handford(Libby) was a wonderful woman and I grew in grace under Dr.Handford's preaching. Sadly,Southside is for all practical spiritual purposes no more.What is called Southside now is solidly New-Evangelical(or worse) to the core. As for Larkin's work,his views on dispensations truly did greatly help in opening my own understanding of the Scriptures and for that I am thankful.There is as Ecclesiastes 3:1 says,"a season,and a time to every purpose under heaven." Your wonderful grandfather is in heaven now and most surely knows all this most perfectly:laugh: . In that we can rejoice and look forward to the day we'll be able to join him there. By the way....I always thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. God Bless You....and by the way...I still think Larkin should be on the list.

    Greg Perry Sr.:saint:
     
    #36 Gregory Perry Sr., Sep 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2007
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Great to hear from you, Greg. I had many blessings at Southside, too, when I was at BJU 1970-1972. :wavey: I'm disapointed at the changes myself, but continue to admire Uncle Walt and Aunt Libby.

    You'll be interested to know that when I joined our mission board I had to deal with dispensationalism. The board's doctrinal statement said, "The church as peculiar to the age of grace." I applied but told the board I couldn't agree with that statement. At that time I followed Granddad's theology. Well, you can imagine what my candidate committee meeting was like--two hours long! :eek:

    To make a long story short, I changed my position after much study on the church, joined the board and nowadays am a dispensationalist.

    So, okay, let's add Larkin and Scofield to the list!

    God bless.

    John :type:
     
  18. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Times are always changing

    Bro.John...as you may know...the Southside you and I knew is no longer there...they tore it down an put up a retirement center. As to the list...I agree..lets twist some SOTL arms and get Larkin added.....Scofield is already on it!!!.. By the way, don't the scriptures make so much more sense when viewed thru dispensational lenses?? Amen and Amen!!! God Bless You!

    Greg Perry Sr.:praying: :thumbs: :saint:
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hey, what dispensationalist hasn't used Larkin's charts at some time or other? :laugh:

    I said that Granddad wasn't a dispensationalist, but he was pretrib and premil. He arrived there through just literally interpreting the Bible, though there was some Scofield influence in his theology. However, he believed in an OT church, and didn't ever teach the dispensations.
     
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