Notre Dame to be given 'Collaborator' status?

I can't remember which show I was watching (Hannity or On the Record), but there are two students who are boycotting their graduation because the school is allowing Obama to speak at their ceremony. Unfortunately, it will take more than two students to really make nay kind of an impact on that.

Back when Bill Clinton was president, there was a high school graduation that he was attending. He was on stage shaking the graduates hands as they were walking across the stage. There were several students who snubbed him & refused to shake his hand. I would have done the same thing if I had been there.

 

==Just my opinion here, but I remember that and I still think it was one of the ruddest things I have ever seen. No American should snub the President of the United States. I don't care how much we disagree with their policies. I also think they were poor witnesses (Rom 13:5-7). That is just my opinion you can take it for what it is worth (probably not much).

 

I've never heard of the "Collaborators Project" and I doubt many people have until now. This group is using the Notre Dame situation to create publicity for themselves. I have a suggestion for Leslie Hanks. Instead of wasting her time threatening a major university, maybe she should use her time preaching the Gospel and helping women who are in need of help.

This is what I liked so much about Jerry Falwell. He did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, he put his money where his mouth was. Instead of just opposing abortion he did something about it. He opened the Liberty Godparent Home. That is what the church needs to be doing. We need to stop protesting and start doing. Stop yelling and start sharing. We get far more done for the Kingdom of God when we obey the command to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, showing mercy on the least of these, and feeding the poor.

Notre Dame's choice of President Obama was a very bad choice for a religious school. However what is done is done. The "Collaborators Project" is wasting their time and energy. I also have major problems with the idea that Catholics and Bible believing Protestants have any common ground.

 

Abortion is murder and it is evil. Both Catholics and Bible believing Protestants have common ground there.

 

==Since the Catholic Church rejects the Gospel everything else is secondary.

 

That's right...let's tell those Catholics to stop being pro-life and polluting our cause!

 

Two things:
There is no such thing as corporate faith..... particularly saving faith. Although a person is often identified as being in agreement based upon the doctrine or beliefs taught and upheld by the group, doesn't mean an individual has rejected the gospel or believes all the errant teachings of a church.

Second: Jews aren't Christian. Jews aren't Catholic. But believing Jews, Protestants and Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God..... particularly the Ten Commandments.... On some moral issues we have much in common..... and should use that strength instead of dividing forces over something which doesn't involve doctrine.

It so happens that this issue is being brought on a Catholic Campus. Folks like Allan Keyes may have better legal standing against tresspass charges by his identification with the Catholic church than a protestant or jew would who is standing for the life of the unborn.

 

==Did I say anything about telling them not to be pro-life? No. I'm simply pointing out that Catholics and Protestants come from two very different backgrounds. Our differences are not small, agree to disagree, points. Rather our differences are on the most important subject in all of time: the Gospel. Such a difference cannot be laid aside for any reason whatsoever. The Gospel is the most important truth that Christians stand for and we should never compromise it for any reason. Catholics are free to have their pro-life events (etc) and so are we. However I don't believe Bible believing Protestants can join hands with Catholics without compromising the truth of the Gospel.

 

==Are there Catholics who believe the Gospel and reject the perversion promoted by that Church? Yes. However by remaining in the Catholic Church and continuing to support it they are compromising the Gospel. The Gospel must be without compromise. We can agree to disagree on many things, but not the Gospel.

==If they believe the Catholic Doctrine of salvation they are lost. We have no more in common with them than moral/pro-life atheists. There is nothing that "doesn't involve doctrine". Everything in life involves Bible teaching.

 

It is here where you are mistaken. As long as we are not committing sin against God, we should work together with any group of people to do away with murder of children.

Combining forces with them on an issue such as this does nothing to dilute the Gospel message. Combining forces with the LDS on an issue such as abortion does nothing to dilute the Gospel message.

 

I understand & respect where your coming from. However, I cannot shake hands with a traitor. Everything that Bill Clinton stood for as president & before that was anti-American. Not to mention he was a perjuring womanizer. Believe me, though, if any other president had of been there & I was there, then I would have shaken their hand.

If God instructed me to shake hands with him, then I guess I have to do what He says. There's no arguing with God.

 

What I find odd about most Catholics (not all of them), is they will normally support or endorse liberal Democrats, who happen to support abortion. Pat Buchanan & Alan Keyes are just two exceptions to this rule (both are Catholic & both are very conservative).

You would think that if Catholics were supportive of their church & their leaders, they would support a candidate who is pro-life & not pro-abortion.

 

As an aside, alot of that happened because the liberal Bishops wrote a document saying it was fine to vote for liberals even though one might not agree with them.

 

There is plenty of reason for this dichotomy which you see in Catholics. Many are indoctrinated in the discipline of their church where everything is centralized and flows out of their church. Many believe in a salvation of works.... although they may not recognize it for what it is. Many of them believe it is through a particular church that they are saved OR that it is the church (referring to the physical earthly authority) which saves them.

However, just because one was brought up Catholic and indoctrinated in their church's doctrine and accustom to various rituals and celebrations, doesn't mean they are dispossessed of the Word of God nor that it has no power to bring God's grace into their lives. To those who are accustomed to no other experience of fellowship and worship, the Catholic church is their familiar form of worship and all they know..... their church and the Bible. But though they still remain in their church... not all believe in the infailability of the Pope, or that the church or its rituals save them. Many do believe it is Jesus who saves them and believe their prayers are going through him.

They have strange teachings about punishment and the afterlife of the soul and are either taught or supported by practices which encourage superstition. Not all receive their teachings from the church just like many members sit on the benches of Protestant churches and donot receive all the teachings of their denomination; so it is with some of them. In their services and their Bible stories, some get more of the truth than others. Some read and trust what they understand of the Bible more than others.

Like many people viewing the same picture which is full of complexities...... if you ask one what they see after veiwing it, they may tell a different description than another person who viewed it with them. If you ask a person ahead of time to look at a picture and tell you whats wrong with it..... he'll look for the flaws first .....and if any are found .....that's what he'll remember the most: Your parameters set the condition of the 'filters' by which he views the picture. If you 'set up' another to view the same picture and tell you what is beautiful or interesting about it... and latter ask him what he remembers, then these are the aspects which he is most likely to have observed and best remembered...... and the flaws went unrecognized, or, once you told him or reminded him of them, they were inconsequential to what he observed and took away.

The Word of God, when it is available, when it is presented, whenever it is read, it has power and substance and doesnot return void. Some hear and receive it more than others.... but the Word has spirit, and some people are more sensitive to the holy spirit and open their heart to receiving the truth in the Word. It is not their attendance or affiliation with a church which saves or condemns the individual..... it is what did they do with Jesus: Have they met the savior and did they believe in him and what he did to save them and is he their Lord. While many other things are important, this is most essential and it is an individual experience and relationship with the Lord.

Their church has a central leader. It has a very formal hierachcy of command. Their church has many involvements, many which are pertaining to social needs which are identified and used to keep its membership involved, and to meet the needs of the body within its organization, and to reach others who are non-members to draw them into its circle. Through such it maintains the loyalty, service, and dependance of many who attend.

Because of its political structure, and because of its social structure (referring to these social programs) it has lent itself to both take political advantage of others.... and to be used for political advantage by others. Because of such attention to social needs..... it is a small jump for many within to accept this structure in government and not see the difference between services and ministries which originate 'within the body' from those socialistics programs which originate 'outside the body'.... through politics and government.

Many Protestant churches are also moving into this direction of incorporating social service type deliveries or 'ministries' into the mainstream of their work to encourage utilization of talents and skills present in the body membership, to meet the identified needs of members within the body, and as a tool of growth to reach out into the community and draw others in. If it seems good for the church, the message to many is that it is also good for the community and the government. Socialism may start to appear like an ideal, because the body is ignorant of the inherant evils which enter every godless but 'good' intention of man: many have not received the full instruction of the scriptures pertaining to the authority of God, man's responsibility to God and to the stewardship of talents, time, and resources, and God's priciples of prosperity and provision and walking in faith.

There's a difference between giving instruction and receiving instruction. If Biblical instruction pertaining to certain areas of discipleship, is only taught or preached at certain services or classes and not others..... then it is narrowed down to being taught to just those who are present to receive the message. If those who are present to hear the message, are preoccupied with their own thoughts, or preconditioned through their own experiences and beliefs, then they are inclined not to receive all of the message or only those parts which they agree with. By hearing, not all hear, and by seeing, not all see. One's openness to the Word depends not only on its presentation, but also on the reception in the hearts of those who receive it or the movement of the holy spirit in wooing them to receive.

The practice of meeting social needs within the Catholic church, and that movement which is growing in the Protestant churches, lends itself very well and often without recognition by the church body to political activism. Wherever there is good intention without careful watchfulness and guarding, covering with prayer and seeking God's direction, these programs lend themselves very well to those who work in these programs for their own purposes..... such as identifying areas within the community at large which give the appearance of being 'under served and ignored' by the governmental authority and services.... and perhaps by the church.

Those who receive these services, well meaning folks, are happy to introduce people who have helped them to others within their community. If such a person being so introduced is fully committed to the gospel of Christ and interested in expanding the ministries of the church... then little or no harm comes: But if a person so introduced, has political motivations and ambitions and lacks committment to the church ministries and the gospel of Christ, he enters the community of 'need' with favorable introduction, protective barriers are dropped, and involvement with the community reveals areas where some believe themselves to be victimized and the who, what, how and whys of their belief system which supports their feelings of victimization and powerlessness. All they need is a pied piper to show them the way through political avenues to get what they suppose they need. This is one reason why people, like Obama, frequently affiliate with a body such as a church which has a platform from which they can develop or expand their purposes.

to be continued....................

 

continued from #15 post.......

Conclusion:
The rituals, teachings, and church government of the Catholic church supports a wide variety in sub sets of beliefs, which may include those who truely are saved: the church lends itself very well in its secrecy as a haven for those who are corrupt and those who have hidden practices which aren't openly supported by their church: Many of the teachings, rituals, and practices provide a platform for individuals to partake of the occult.... with some occult practices hidden in secret in some of its leadership. The structure of the RC authority, the membership involvement in social ministries and identifying needs in the community through which church growth may occur... also lends itself to acceptance of socialism and strong centralized authority. The increasing social outreach programs in the protestant churches also are lending themselves to supporting the propaganda already promoted in the schools which is a socialist agenda.

The tolerance movement, which hides sin, or fails to teach repentance, is increasing and leavening all denominations... RC and Protestant. Our many aquaintances with those who are sodomites, and those who have chosen abortion, often places us in positions of giving mixed messages. Without identifying and preaching on sin and against specific sin present and common in a community, and concerns over offending and loosing members..... the message being preached and received by many warming the pews is that of equating tolerance to the love of God. It's no wonder that many in the RC go against the teachings of their church. On this very board, some of us who peruse these threads can see that even with Baptist believers, there exists some who have confusion over issues like abortion, sodomy, divorce, evolution, socialism vs republic form of constitutional government (one a God substitute.... the other ....the least restrictive and dependant on individuals accountability to God and godly authority).

Man and man's government have problems. Problems acknowledge and recognized demand solutions. The greatest problem of mankind.... sin.... rebellion against God.... goes unrecognized by most .....because our hearts are evil and selfish and self willed.... and only God can reveal through his holy spirit our deprivatey and need for him. Because man's other problems and solutions attempted are often outside the recognition of God, the solutions attempted are not submissive to his authority. Where there are evil forces competing against God, and desiring the destruction of man; and where man has rejected the authority of God; the evil works in man and captures the very best of aspirations to twist and turn and weave deception within to bring bondage to the very creature which was meant to glorify God (by knowing the truth and being free in the Lord). Socialism which is godless and man made authority will never ever succeed. All of man's designs will have flaws, injustice, imperfections, waste, bondage, and eventually follow the broad path to destruction.

 

==I disagree most strongly. After all, if we are clear about the Gospel most of them (Catholics) will not wish to join with us. The Biblical Gospel is an offense to many Catholics who believe the Roman Catholic system of salvation.

We must also consider the fact that by joining forces with Catholics, Mormons, (etc) we are joining forces with false teachers who are sending millions of souls to hell. Is that more acceptable than abortion? I think not!

 

==That is an understandable position.

==True.

 

When it concerns secular issues....... and the issue of abortion IS a secular issue as far as it being allowed by the law of the land, then the option that we have to fight it in the courts, and in the laws, and in the budget, is through the secular means of government..... and to protest whereever we see the defences which were once strong start falling.

If Christianity plays a large role in our offense to abortion, then we must stand together in prayer, and in protest. The prayer is our spiritual warfare which requires agreement..... spiritual agreement. But protest against that which is evil; protests against abortion can bind larger groups of people who are agreed in seeing abortion as evil.

Some divisions are worth standing for. This is one area in which denominationism, or the worship of Protestantism serves no purpose in standing against abortion when it divides the strength and masses of the protestors in a fight which is common to more than those of a creed.

Now if it concerns your pocket book and you don't care to support or serve in Catholic ministries for the unwed mother....... so be it. I've no discention with you on that point. I suppose you would consider other ministries with your helps which accomplish the same purpose. But this is not a doctrine division when we are in agreement on the taking of innocent life.